announcer: "Theatre Corner" is brought to you by The Harold K. Brown Economic Development and Education Foundation.

Harold and LaVerne Brown, Osborne and Dea Hurston, Rachel Malveaux, Tania Adami, and viewers like you, thank you.

Michael Taylor: Welcome to "Theatre Corner," I'm your host Michael Taylor.

As a lifelong theater enthusiast and a former board member of one of the nation's top theaters, I've witnessed firsthand the transformative power of embracing a multitude of perspectives on stage and in the audience.

This interview series was born from my passion for theater and aims to amplify the rich tapestry of voices that make up the theater world.

Join us as we engage with leading professionals in the entertainment industry, delving into their artistic process, careers, offering inspiration for aspiring creatives, and exploring ways to make theater resonate with a broader audience.

Ladies and gentlemen, today we are honored to welcome back to Theater Corner the esteemed Sheldon Epps, a visionary director and former artistic director of the Pasadena Playhouse.

Mr. Epps has been a trailblazer in the American theater championing diversity and bringing compelling stories to the stage.

His illustrious career spanned both theater and television.

And he recently shared his experiences in his memoir, "My Own Direction: A Black Man's Journey in the American Theater."

Mr. Sheldon Epps, welcome, welcome to "Theatre Corner," or should I say welcome back?

Sheldon Epps: Welcome back, yes.

Michael: To "Theatre Corner."

You were one of the first interviews actually on "Theatre Corner" way back in the day, I think like 2016 or so.

Sheldon: Yes, yeah.

Good to be back with you, good to be back in San Diego, you know, I have my roots here from The Old Globe.

Michael: So tell me about that that's a great start.

Sheldon: Yeah, well I really think of The Old Globe as my graduate school training in being an artistic director because, under a grant from Theater Communications Group I was there for four years as associate artistic director when Jack O'Brien was the artistic director, and of course he was a great model for artistic direction and in many ways, theatrically, personally, emotionally, all of those things, so I have a home here.

Michael: And you left The Globe and you went north.

Sheldon: I went north, literally I think my last day at The Globe was a Friday.

And I had the weekend off and the following Monday graduated to artistic director of Pasadena Playhouse, the very historic illustrious Pasadena Playhouse, where I thought I would be for five years.

And five turned into ten, turned into fifteen, turned into twenty years as artistic director at the Playhouse, so a good long tenure.

Michael: Tell me what that was like to carry that position at a major theater like that as a Black artistic director.

Because it's, I mean, realistically it's different, it's not the same, and it's not the same experience.

Sheldon: Right, so the transformation of the theater into really being representative of Los Angeles and of America was challenging, and there were certainly resistance to that idea.

There were some who didn't want me messing around with what they thought of as their theater.

You know, this sort of White bastion of art, how dare I?

There were people who thought, you know, that I had this Black agenda, that I was gonna try to turn it into Negro Ensemble Company West.

And that was certainly not true, but it was true that I wanted to do the work of Black artists, but also Latino artists, Asian, Asian American artists.

There was resistance, but there was also a lot of support at that time, many of the major theaters in Los Angeles were not doing work by Black artists or certainly only doing work by Black artists occasionally, one a season is sort of the motto.

So I knew that there was a community that was waiting to be served and waiting to see themselves reflected on the stage.

So fortunately my people of color came out and supported the theater and you know, the one thing you can't argue with in the theater is success, and particularly box office success.

You know, the boards can grumble about it, the older subscribers can grumble about it, but if the ticket sales are there, and the work is good and being well received, then everybody has to kind of back off.

Now they may talk about you behind your back out in the parking lot, I used to say, but they couldn't justifiably complain because the theater was being brought back to a much more vivid and successful life than it had in many many years.

Michael: That's beautiful.

And one particular play you produced there, a phenomenal play.

I mean you pulled in Laurence Fishburne and Angela Bassett, and some other names, how did you pull that off?

Sheldon: You hear those show business stories about people trying to put a movie together, play together, TV series together, and you hear this tale that a producer or director will go to one actor and say, "Well, he said if you'll do it, he'll do it.

And she said, if you'll do it, he'll do it."

I really kind of did that.

I will admit that I went to Angela first because I'd met her several times and said, "Well, I'd really love to do this with you and Laurence Fishburne, and Laurence told me that if you'll do it, he'll do it."

And she said, "Well, that's really interesting," you know, they've done "What's Love Got To Do With It" together and so.

And so then I went to Laurence and I said, "Now Angela told me that she'll do it if you'll do it.

Oh, Angela, well I love Angela and I love 'Fences,' I love August Wilson," they both loved August Wilson, that was a big part of it.

But I was a little manipulative, I will admit it, but that's part of being a good producer, yeah you gotta do that kind of stuff.

Michael: And so during the time you were artistic director, you were at the same time you were directing television.

Sheldon: I was, yes.

Michael: Talk about that part of the other side of your career during that span of time.

Sheldon: It really was right before I took the job that I started directing television.

My first episodic was a show called "Evening Shade" with Burt Reynolds, and my second, which I did over the course of three or four years, was "Sister Sister" with Tia and Tamara, the twins.

And then I, you know, graduated, I would say to doing "Frasier and Friends" and Everybody Loves Raymond, and it was--but also opened the door to many people who were working in television who also worked in the theater and wanted to work in the theater, so I drew in from the television world directors and designers and a lot of actors as well who then came to work at Pasadena Playhouse, so there was a lot of one serving the other.

Michael: So on the technical side, is there a noticeable difference directing television as opposed to directing theater?

Sheldon: I don't think so.

It is all about storytelling, and to validly tell a story, you have to validly honestly tell the story.

In one case you're doing it for a theater audience, so the scale of it might have to be larger in a 600 seat theater, a thousand seat theater, or you're telling that story in front of cameras, so you bring the scale of it down.

But getting to the truth of the story, the characters, the relationships, making sense of the story, that's all the same.

Michael: This is what I've been looking forward to.

This book right here, this is fantastic.

I'm really proud of you, very nice title.

Sheldon: I like it.

Michael: How would you characterize this book?

This book is about what?

Sheldon: Well, the subtitle really kind of says it.

The subtitle is "A Black Man's Journey in the American Theater."

Which is a very specific journey for any person of color.

I wrote the book right after I stepped down from being the artistic director.

So, but a lot about the journey of my time at Pasadena Playhouse which is representative of the journey of other men and women of color even right now who are leading theaters who are unfortunately still having some of the same challenges that I did.

Michael: So I don't want to turn this into a book talk, but I'm going to turn this into a book talk.

Sheldon: Okay, that's all right.

Michael: I would love for you to actually read an excerpt from the book if you're up for it, and I'll let you select what part you you'd like to share with the audience.

Sheldon: Well, I think we're probably coming to our close so I'm gonna read the close of the book which kind of sums up a lot of things.

"Going forward, isn't that what it's all about going forward, always pushing ahead, using all of the knowledge that one has hopefully gained over the years of a life in the theater to answer new questions, explore new territory, to be brave enough to walk into different rooms rather than revisiting old ones and repeating what you've done before.

Going forward, asking what's next?

What's around that very dark or very well lit corner?

Where can I go on my next leg of this journey?

As always and as ever, those answers will come from doing, not from thinking about the questions.

So, though I'm just a kid from Compton, I will keep going, I will keep going forward, I will hear the words of my father and keep holding on.

Hope, determination, tenacity, a little bit of southern arrogance, a good reputation, and certainly a bit of luck, give me the great luxury of knowing that there are indeed other journeys still ahead of me and other doors to open.

So it's time to get back on the road, time to keep traveling in my own directions."

Michael: That is gorgeous.

That is beautiful, I really appreciate that.

And in new directions, so you're working on a piece, "Miss Maude," tell me about this particular piece of work.

Sheldon: "Miss Madd" is a wonderful true story, about the relationship of a very famous "Life Magazine" photographer named Eugene Smith, White photographer.

He had done a lot of pictures of the war and sort of had a nervous breakdown from taking all of these awful pictures of war horrors, and was on the verge of quitting as a photographer when "Life Magazine" sent him to do a series of photos on southern midwives.

And almost the first day that he got there, he ran into a woman named Maude Callan and took a beautiful, beautiful picture of the moment of her helping a young Black woman give birth, and it's really almost like a portrait of a Madonna.

It's a beautiful, beautiful pictures, and that brought him back to life.

And he followed her around for many months taking all of these gorgeous pictures and submitted them to "Life Magazine," who initially did not want to publish the story, but some big honcho with "Life Magazine" came in and said, "Yes, we're gonna publish this story."

And that helped to raise many thousands of dollars for Black clinics for healthcare for poor women, Black and White in the South.

And I did a play about this in Houston about a year and a half ago at a theater in Houston and it's now been optioned to be done as a feature film, so knock wood, everything will come together very soon to start shooting that hopefully within the next six months or so.

Michael: And so thank you for coming by, for sitting with me, Sheldon.

It's always fantastic to see you and definitely you gotta come back again.

Sheldon: I would love to, I would love to.

Listen, obviously I'm a big fan of yours and of "Theatre Corner," and the work that you do, and I'd like to come back more than once every ten years which it feels like it's been, but I think the show is wonderful, that you really dig deep into the heart and soul of artists, particularly artists of color.

And though we pat ourselves on the back for all the progress we've made, we still have a long way to go and we're still facing a lot of challenges.

So for you to literally point these spotlights at artists of color is so important and so valuable.

So, thank you for having me and for doing that.

Michael: I really appreciate those words from such a legend and such a friend.

You're wonderful and over this time you've really represented us well.

I'm watching, and the ancestors are watching and they're smiling.

Sheldon: Oh, thank you.

That's a great compliment.

Michael: Yes, thank you.

Michael: My next guest brings a unique form of artistry to the show.

Joining us is Steve Breen, a distinguished political cartoonist renowned for his keen observations and artistic prowess.

With a career spanning over two decades, Steve has masterfully combined his love for drawing and writing to comment on the human condition and current events.

His insightful cartoons have not only sparked conversations but have also earned him the prestigious Pulitzer Prize twice.

In our conversation, Steve delves into his journey from discovering his passion for art and writing, to navigating the evolving landscape of journalism and digital media.

Michael: Steve Bream, welcome to "Theatre Corner."

Steve Breen: Thank you, Michael.

Michael: It's really cool to have you here.

Thanks for stopping by the studio, and you are the first and probably the only political cartoonist that we would ever have on "Theatre Corner."

That's an incredibly unique thing to do.

How did you come into that particular field?

Steve: It was a slow progression of circumstances and skills and you know.

I've always been able to draw, that's kind of the foundation, and then after I learned that I could draw I kind of learned that I could write.

And people kind of forget about the writing component of cartooning, there's a lot of writing that goes into it.

And then I learned that I was kind of a good observer.

And I really enjoyed human behavior and the human condition.

And I think that that's also a kind of a big part of it, that's a big skill that goes into cartooning.

Michael: What medium did you start with in terms of the art?

Steve: Well, I guess I started with print, college, I started drawing for my school newspaper, and I was a I was a cartoonist.

So I was ink on paper and then those would find their way into the newsprint of the campus newspaper.

So that's where I started.

Michael: On your trajectory you land in San Diego, but that's not a straight shot.

Steve: It wasn't a straight shot, when I was in college, I went to UC Riverside.

I was a political science major and I was drawing editorial cartoons for my school newspaper.

And I realized that's what I wanted to do for a living by junior, senior year, somewhere in there.

So I was sending my cartoons all over the United States.

This was before the Internet so I was subscribing to newspapers in a couple places and they were mailing me newspapers from Connecticut and New Jersey, and I was studying the politics and the issues of the state of Connecticut and New Jersey, and I was then drawing my cartoons and mailing them back to the editors, you know, so that I could show them that I could do local cartoons.

And finally that I hit paydirt when a newspaper in New Jersey said, "These are pretty good, would you like a job here?"

And it wasn't a full-time editorial cartooning job, they said could you do pagination 6 at night till 2 in the morning, and that's four days a week, we'll let you do one day a week cartooning, but I was hungry, you know, I was young and hungry, so I took it.

Michael: Eventually you made it here to San Diego.

Steve: Well, the cartoonist tenure was ended at the Union Tribune, and I was offered the position and I said, "Hey, bigger newspaper closer to where I grew up," and I moved out here, and so I was at the Union Tribune for 23 years.

Michael: Twenty-three years.

Steve: Yeah, it was a great run.

I had great colleagues, great editors.

Michael: And what does that actually look like though?

I mean in terms of how frequent you're creating a cartoon for a newspaper for 23 years.

Steve: I produced a lot, as do most editorial cartoons, most full-time cartoonists at daily newspapers that people don't realize.

Michael: The newspaper comes out seven days a week.

Steve: So I would do, I would do at least five a week, at least five editorial cartoons a week and other things, some illustrations here and there, we did a caption contest, turned out to be about 250 cartoons a year.

And of those 250, I would say 25 I was really, really, really proud of, 25 I was really, really embarrassed by.

And then the rest were just kind of like, eh, that was good, that was okay, you know.

It was like a bell curve.

Michael: I don't know this might be a dumb question, but what comes first, the image or the story?

Steve: It's a good question and the answer is it depends.

It could come either way, you know.

The foundation though, the first thing that has to come is how you feel about that topic, you know, your point of view, right?

Because an editorial cartoon is a piece of commentary.

And if you know what you're trying to say, 50% is finding your topic that you want to comment on, 40% is coming up with how you feel about that topic.

So that's the 90% most important part of your day, of your journey.

And then the other 10%, it's almost like 10% roughly is just kind of figuring out a creative way how you're going to make that comment.

Michael: When I think of political cartoons, I think way back in the day, and you see these cartoons, they're being used by political forces like the propaganda cartoons, dehumanizing a potential enemy or an enemy, that's something that you have to encounter where you become part of the propaganda machine.

Steve: Every cartoon is a piece of propaganda, so we could start with that.

Cartooning is it's kind of like a tool, I don't wanna say a weapon, but it's like a tool, and it's only as good as the person wielding it right?

I feel that I have a sense of right and wrong, I feel that I have a heart is sensitive to those who are suffering, I'm very sensitive to injustice, and those things come out in the work.

More often than not I'm going to go after the person who's committing that injustice, or the person who's being afflicted, you know, and I'm going to try to build them up.

That is true though that cartooning has been used to dehumanize.

You know, but it was in the hands of someone who is evil or someone who was bad.

Michael: So you are not only the first cartoonist but the first person on this show who's won not just one Pulitzer Prize but two Pulitzer Prizes, not that you're counting.

So tell me about that, how does one come to be a Pulitzer Prize winning cartoon?

Steve: Your work is sent to Columbia University and it's for a portfolio of work from the previous year.

And you send that in a nice little package to Columbia University every January and then winners are announced a couple of months later.

I won at the first newspaper at the Asbury Park Press and then I won at the Union Tribune in 2009.

The Asbury Park Press, it was really special because not only was it my first Pulitzer, but I was a young guy, I was kind of just starting out.

I won for the cartoons that I did in 1997, which is my first full time year as an editorial cartoonist.

My first full year of doing work and the topics back then it was like Bill Clinton and Al Gore fundraising scandal, Princess Diana's death, steroids and baseball, a couple other topics like that.

It was the first time my newspaper had won a Pulitzer, you know.

And I was the first journalist in New Jersey to win a Pulitzer in like 30 or 40 years, it was something like that.

So anyway, I tell people if you're gonna win a Pulitzer, win one at a place like the Asbury Park Press, you know.

Don't win one at the Washington Post or the LA Times or The New York Times, they already have dozens on the wall.

Win one where you're the only winner and they will treat you very special.

Michael: In 2009 comes around and you hit the second one-- Steve: I was happy that I won it here for San Diego, because my editor at the time, Karen Winter, she took a chance on me, on hiring me.

And I felt like it was something nice for her and for the editors at the Union Tribune.

Michael: So when Todd Gloria sees you, does he smile, does he frown?

Steve: Todd is a seasoned pro.

So Todd, he always smiles, but yeah, he's a good guy.

I think smart people, I think secure people know that a little bit of criticism comes with the game, you know.

Michael: What is the illustration art look like now with technology?

I mean, it's not the same.

Steve: No, it's not the same.

I used to spend hundreds of dollars a year at Blick Art supply down in in Little Italy, which I love, I love Blick.

That's gone now, I'm all digital.

And I think more and more cartoonists and artists are moving digital.

Michael: Along with illustrations you also have the gift of marketing.

Steve: I have a master's in digital marketing.

I've always thought that editorial cartooning is like marketing, right?

Or at least advertising.

You have a point of view, you have something you want to sell, right?

And you combine words and pictures, you know, art and copy to get the message across.

So, I've always been fascinated by human nature and I love telling stories.

So I think that that's all related, you know.

Michael: Steve, thank you for coming and agreeing to do the show, and I'm really looking forward to seeing your continued work on iNewsource.

Steve: Thanks, and Michael, I appreciate what you do and this show is so phenomenal for the community here on KPBS.

Michael: Fantastic, all right, Steve.

Best to you sir and thank you viewers for tuning into another episode of "Theatre Corner," and we'll see you next time.

♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ announcer: Support for this program comes from the KPBS Explore Local Content Fund, supporting new ideas and programs for San Diego.