[bright upbeat music] ♪ [bright upbeat music] ♪ [bright upbeat music] ♪ [bright upbeat music] ♪ [bright upbeat music] - Hello and welcome to "Comic Culture", I'm Terence Dollard, a professor in the Department of Mass Communication at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke.

My guest today is cartoonist Peter Gallagher.

Peter, welcome to Comma Culture.

- Ah, thank you very much Terence.

Great to be here.

- Peter, you are the creative mind behind one of the, I guess, more engaging newspaper strips "Heathcliff".

Now it's a strip that on the surface is about a cat but there's some other layers going on to it.

So I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about your approach to this character.

Someone once said to me, it's almost like it's Andy Kaufman doing a comic strip.

- Yeah, you know, it's been around for a long time actually.

"Heathcliff" turns 50 this year and I've been doing it myself for over 20 years.

You know, I love the style of it but I just wanted to do something that was a little more in my sense of humor.

And I also loved the idea of taking something that was classic and keeping the look and everything to it but maybe turning it on its head a little bit.

And I could have been a terrible flop and I'm just really pleased that it seems like people are responding to it.

But that was definitely my intention with doing it 'cause that that's kind of my sense of humor that I've always done with my own comics like growing up and stuff.

So yeah, that was kind of what I was hoping for and I'm just really thankful that people have responded well to it.

- It is a lot of fun because you don't know what you're going to get and gosh, I guess the latest trend that I'm wearing the Jimmy shirt today is we've had the character of Jimmy who was introduced and there was a week of just Jimmy strips and nobody likes Jimmy except Heathcliff and then he has the one fan.

And then we sort of transitioned into Bro and now it's been a combination of Bro and Brog.

And so I'm just wondering, when you're coming up with these concepts, are they designed to be this sort of long range, we're just gonna play with it?

Or is it something where, you know, just today I feel like writing Bro?

- Yeah, I mean it is kind of that way.

What I do is, I sit down, when I do my ideas, I sit down and try to do them all at once in a sitting to kind of get on a roll.

And when I first started doing "Heathcliff", I was really trying to do like a professional job and make it as funny as it's always been.

And then I just started kind of dipping my toe into trying to make it a little bit more like my sense of humor.

And I find that when I sit down to draw, it's a question of just feeling relaxed and coming up with something that I find funny.

And there are a lot of repeating things like Bro.

Jimmy was just, you know it's funny because with social media, when I first started doing it, there was no social media and I would get like fan mail mailed to you and then I would get, then email.

But now with the all the different platforms that it's on with Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and everywhere else, you get feedback which I really like and it's not all positive but I still enjoy it.

I think it's very helpful.

And like, for example, with Jimmy, the first Jimmy cartoon I did, and Jimmy is a, for those who don't know, he is this little frog that Heathcliff is trying to promote as the next big thing and nobody is buying it.

Heathcliff believes in Jimmy but nobody else does.

And the first one I put up, it was like Jimmy was not getting any love, except he was getting it on social media.

So I just kinda tried to do it some more like when I come up with themes and stuff like that, I'll have a theme week and I try to do those sometimes but I like circling back to things sometimes but I don't like, you know, you have to be careful, you don't wanna like spoil it by doing it too much.

- And you mentioned social media and my friend Aaron and I will occasionally in the morning, I'll get a text message from him, it'll be the latest "Heathcliff" or I'll send him something that I saw.

But there are podcasts people are discussing "Heathcliff" and it's a weekly podcast that I've come across.

You know, when you have that sort of impact on pop culture, it's gotta be a little weird and and does it ever kinda creep into the work?

- That's a very good question.

The podcast is called "The Meat Cast" and it's these two young guys out of Austin, Texas that do it and they do it every week and they go over the "Heathcliff" comics for the week.

And I've told friends of mine, it's kinda feels very self-indulgent.

I'm like listening to people talk about what I do every day and talking about me.

But it's a good point.

I find that when you're getting attention online or with that and people are expecting it and they're saying like, "Oh wow, Heathcliff is really kind of being crazy "and stuff."

I find that I just have to keep doing what I'm doing and don't, I feel like there's probably nothing worse than someone who's trying to be weird like if it comes across as forced, it would kind of of really not be good at all.

So I just try to do what I think is funny but yeah, sometimes you don't wanna start doing something out of your wheelhouse in order to just be a pleaser of everybody.

And I try to just stick with what I have been doing and not stray too far from that.

- Now, I know one of the characters that The Comics Curmudgeon talked about many times was the Garbage Ape.

And my friend Aaron wants to know first off is the Garbage Ape pro-union?

And the second question is, is that the first character you created that was sort of out of that norm?

- I think it might be, yeah.

The first time I did the Garbage Ape, I think it was an Easter Sunday comic and I was trying to come up with an alternative to the Easter Bunny like that Heathcliff believed in something other than the Easter Bunny and he came up with this Garbage Ape and he just kinda bounced down the street at night and delivers garbage to the neighborhood cats and they all love him.

And any other nighttime creatures as well, they all, but he, I kind of was thinking of him being maybe like, I don't know, the great pumpkin or the tooth fairy where you're not sure if they're real or not.

And I think that was really the first one that was a created character by me that was out of the usual Heathcliff universe that seemed to kind of catch on.

And I think that one thing I've tried not to do is do too many Garbage Ape comics because I think it would maybe spoil it.

So I try to make the Garbage Ape appearances like a special occasion.

- It's interesting 'cause there is that fine line between giving the audience exactly what they want and giving them a taste every now and then and I'm imagining for you, you have to keep it fresh.

I mean, you're doing 365 strips a year, I guess in a quarter.

So how do you sort of make sure that you're not getting bored, you're always enjoying what you're doing?

- You know, recently I was talking to a colleague of mine and and just said, you know, well, one of the things I love about doing it every day is when I first started doing it, it felt a little daunting but I like the deadline and having to do it all the time and each comic isn't as precious as it would be.

Like if I had a month to do it instead of a week, I would probably procrastinate and spend way too much time on it.

And this way I have to just get it done.

And I feel like when I'm doing it, I had a thing that happened a couple of weeks ago where I kind of hit a brick wall, you know?

Like I was coming up with a lot of ideas but they weren't funny and they felt tired and they felt, I don't know, they didn't feel fresh like you said.

And I finally, I just kept night after night coming up with a lot of ideas that just weren't doing it for me.

And then finally, I had a breakthrough with one and the floodgates kind of opened, but it's true.

I really feel like you have to keep it fresh.

I have to kind of listen to my own sense of humor and really stick to that and also too like I said before, I feel like it's important for, at least for me in my process to be relaxed and have fun and enjoy it because I do, I love drawing and I love coming up with comics.

It's like my favorite thing to do.

So I feel really fortunate doing it but it is trying to stay fresh and come up with new things.

I find it a challenge but one I really love.

- And you mentioned that you will do the writing, you'll kind of write down your ideas and I know a lot of cartoonists will do that.

They'll have their idea book and they'll kinda write out this stuff.

Is it something where you write out maybe a week's worth or two weeks worth of ideas and then you take one at a time and sort of sit down and do it every day?

Or do you have a little bit more, you know I guess, completed punchline and setup that you know you're gonna be using?

- You know, usually like every week I'll deliver a week of comics to my editor at Creator Syndicate and it's six dailies and a Sunday.

And when I sit down to do the writing, especially for the dailies, what happens a lot is that I'll come up with like four or five really solid ones that I can go to work on now.

Now I can sit down and draw them and do the whole, and I don't work digitally.

I work traditionally and I do then scan my work and clean it up and Photoshop and stuff.

But I like to work traditionally so I have an original and I like that.

But yeah, I always find that I'll have maybe one or two that are hanging there.

Like I'm getting close to the deadline.

I'm starting to draw these other ones and I don't have ideas for the last two.

And I don't know if it's, what it is, if it's the pressure of it or something but I find that those are the ones that end up being my favorite.

I don't know why, it seems to happen a lot that those ones that I come up with at the last minute, I seem to like the most.

- It's interesting, I've spoken with a number of writers and a number of artists who say sometimes when things aren't working as easily for them, maybe they'll do something else, they'll work on something else, they'll maybe just take a walk and their subconscious kind of solves that problem for you.

And I'm wondering if you're thinking that's sort of what's happening like that idea's there, your brain knows it's got something to it and then it kinda solves the problem so that when you do finally sit down, it's like a revelation?

- Yeah, I'm a believer of that and you know, I teach at the local university here in New Jersey and I talk to my students all the time about like, you know, you're sitting there working on a problem, you're trying to draw.

Like even if it's just an illustration or a cartoon and you just can't get it, I find the best thing to do is just walk away from it and come back and like, if it's the next day, a lot of times when you come and you sit down, you look at it immediately, the solution pops into your head.

But I've also heard people talking about, I've heard this from writers, that even laying down and kind of almost falling into a nap, sometimes your brain will almost come up with the solution for you like that subconscious, semi-conscious state.

You know I've probably like most cartoonists or creatives, I've tried to procrastinate every way possible and fooled myself into thinking that, "Oh, let me just lay down, I'll come up with some ideas," and then of course, I fall asleep and, you know.

But I do think that there is something to that and like you said, you know, like when I had that problem where I wasn't coming up with anything good, you know, I was doing it, I was sitting down every night and coming up with a lot of ideas and just nothing was inspired.

Everything was just, it felt like it was the same old thing or tired retreads of the same ideas but eventually it broke through and you know, there's all kinds of, but I feel like that that is a good one.

Go for a walk, get some fresh air, just go away from it for a little while and leave it alone.

And I do think there is something in your brain where it's working it out and maybe you get the answers.

And I've been fortunate that sometimes with those last minute ones that they just happen that way and I feel lucky.

- For a syndicated cartoonist such as yourself, you are not doing three panels, you're doing that single panel every day.

And I'm wondering if that is, I don't wanna say easier because you're not doing three panels or if it's more of a challenge because you've only got that one panel to tell that story and you know if you are taking a break because it's not quite connecting with you, how does that affect the fact that you've gotta get six of those done plus, I think your last Sunday was seven or nine panels.

So how do you kinda balance your time?

- Well, I just try to, you know, I send everything out, I try to send everything out on Friday.

So at the beginning of the week I start writing.

But yeah, I mean, I love the single panel format, you know some of my favorite cartoonists are currently like New Yorker cartoonists.

I think they do excellent work and I love coming up with the caption and really in a single panel compared to, if I was doing multi-panels, you know there's kinda not a lot of room to draw.

You're doing the two characters and the thing I love about this single panel is I get to draw backgrounds, I get to do perspective, I get to do how to balance the drawing with lots of characters in it and the single panel, I mean, the multi-panel which is photo classic.

And I've done, I do sometimes on the dailies break up the panel into multiple ones, two or three, but I love the single panel because I think there's much more drawing involved in it.

When you have the multi panels too, you have to take into account, you have word balloons, those take up a lot of space, you know?

It's just, it's a different style.

And I belong to the National Cartoonist Society and every year they have their Reuben Awards and I've heard a couple of like single panel cartoonists refer to like kind of deriding the multi-panel ones.

It's like, "Well, we get it done in one panel "what you guys takes you three to do," you know, it's pretty funny.

But I love that format.

And I love coming up with the caption and I'll put word balloons for sound effects in the single panel sometimes but I love having all that room to draw and the captions below it so it doesn't really interfere with the, but on the Sundays of course I have word balloons and it's multi-panel just like every other, like all the multi-panel comics as well.

- Are you working on the same size board?

I mean, I know that, you know, strips are generally, I guess, I don't know the measurements of my head but somewhere let's say five by 10 or something like that.

So are you doing the same sort of thing or are you using a larger board for the single panel?

- Yeah, my panel is, I can actually show you one here, hold on.

I get them pre-printed and it's just on, I used to put it on Bristol board but it's on card stock.

It's easier to see through and I like it but it's just on an eight by 10 or an 8.5 by 11 sheet of paper that I get printed up by my local printer.

And I have the same one, it's the exact same Heathcliff panel that's been used in all 50 years.

And that's one of the things I like about it too.

And yeah, but that's a good size, I like working on it that size.

Like the times that when I'm drawing Heathcliff, it's very manageable that size that I draw him at most of the time.

You know, sometimes it would be smaller and sometimes up close more but the usual size of Heathcliff like say he is walking down the street or something like that.

Yeah, I really enjoy that size.

That works for me.

- Heathcliff doesn't speak, most of the strips are, the punchlines delivered by supporting characters.

I'm thinking of the one where the owner's head is on the wall and it's a fake head, it looks so lifelike, I believe was the joke.

But you've gotta find the right person to deliver the punchline.

So how do you pick between the supporting cast that's appropriate for today's gag?

- Yeah, there are kind of rules about who speaks and who doesn't speak.

The birds like up in the tree, they speak a lot, they'll comment.

People in the backgrounds.

Cats don't speak and dogs don't speak but things like raccoons do speak and skunks and squirrels, fish and the fishbowl they speak as well like the Bro fish but yeah, whoever is, you know, it is a challenge that Heathcliff doesn't speak but I think I've just been doing it a long time and there probably would be times where it'd be much easier if I could have Heathcliff deliver a punchline or something but it's just not the nature of the character and I welcome that challenge.

But yeah, whoever, whatever's going on in the strip, you know, I try to mix it up and not have it become the same with people in the background saying it but you know, Heathcliff doesn't speak so somebody has to say something about what's going on, you know?

And the birds, I found the birds to be very useful tool to describe things 'cause then you're gonna have people in the scene as well or other things and the birds are up in a tree or on a wire and observing the whole thing.

- That's what I was gonna say, they're the perfect observer.

They have the, I guess, the birds eye view.

So it's really interesting how you work with the supporting cast.

There are people who just appear depending on the circumstances.

And I'm thinking of the fact that Heathcliff loves meat and I believe recently there was the butcher talking about Heathcliff as he's driving down the road in this year's Ham's Electric or something along those lines.

You have your cast that you can choose from.

Are there any particular favorites that when you're, I mean, you said the birds but like if it's a a family dynamic, is there a family member who you really wanna explore but maybe haven't had a chance to?

- Yeah, that's a good question.

I feel like, the Iggy lives with the Nutmeg family which is Grandma Nutmeg and Grandpa Nutmeg and Iggy, their grandson.

And I like the dynamic with each one, Iggy and Heathcliff, Heathcliff's almost maybe like an older brother that's kind of a troublemaker and Iggy's a little more innocent but they're buddies and Grandma loves Heathcliff and he can do no wrong like she just never sees any fault.

And Grandpa's the one, I like that dynamic because Grandpa sees right through Heathcliff's schemes and the two of them are maybe in competition for control of the household.

And you know, they do have their moments of tenderness or friendship but it's usually a battle of wills and most of the time Heathcliff is coming out on top or just really irritating Grandpa.

I like that relationship a lot.

- You know, it's interesting, you said you are not working digitally and I know a lot of artists like to work the traditional methods.

So is there any particular reason like I know if I'm drawing, I like that tactile feel of pencil on board or ink as it flows from a brush or a pen.

Plus you know, being surrounded by technology all day, I don't wanna have to stare at another screen.

So was that part of the choice or was it just something because you wanna feel like you have something to hold at the end.

- That's part of it but I totally agree with you.

I have my own iPad that I like to work on it because I do like to draw when I'm not working on Heathcliff, do some other things.

But I agree with you.

I like the feel of pencil on paper and pen and ink like on the paper.

That smooth surface and the pen on the glass is, I prefer to feel the pull of maybe the, you know card stock that I use has a little bit of tooth to it.

And when I do the Sundays, the Sundays are much bigger.

They're very big and I just really like working in that way.

The control, yeah, there may come a time where I may switch to that but I really enjoy working traditionally.

I don't find it to be a burden, I'm sure there are a lot of things that would make it easier to do it digitally and it would save time probably.

But I work pretty fast too.

You know, when I get an idea and the idea is solid, I can really crank out a daily pretty quickly.

I'll do a rough drawing and then I use my light box that's behind me on my drawing table.

And then I tape the rough onto the back of the panel like I showed you and then I ink it and I really like that.

I like very rough, rough and then I go into the finish with my micron pens or the main pens that I use and I like to leave a lot of room for drawing on it where I'm not just tracing, I'm actually creating the drawing while I'm doing it.

It holds my interest where I get the, like in the rough, I'm just kind of getting everything basically where it should be and the sizes of it and everything.

And then in the finish, I'm really drawing it which is very enjoyable to me.

- It's interesting because I've noticed that when I'm doing a project, if I work too detailed with the pencils, by the time I get to the ink stage, there's a really good chance that I'm going to kinda kill that magic and life from the drawings not going to be there the way it was when I had maybe done something roughly.

So it's interesting that you're taking that rough idea and just going straight to the ink keeping it a little bit loose so that way you've got that chance to capture just right.

- Yeah, I agree with you.

I feel like, you know, it's funny, even doing rough, really rough just like ideas and coming up with them, I find that sometimes you'll come up with a sketch of an idea and the drawing is so perfect but it's just really rough and it's very hard to get that feel like I've even traced it and it doesn't look the same, you know?

Like you need that, I don't know, there's gotta be something but I agree with you.

I think you need to leave some room for that.

- And we have about a minute left in our conversation, I was just wondering if let's say my friend Aaron's cat, Terry, the tailless Manx cat wanted to be featured on a Sunday strip, how do you sort of pick the cat that you're going to feature, is it Crazy Cat or Cat Gone Wild?

- Or, you know, it's funny because like now, my website heathcliff.com, before that I would get, there's lots of fan mail and there are Kitty Corners even from years ago.

But I get a lot of submissions and my choice of picking them, I try to go, you know, but it is kind of random.

You know I'll just look at one and one that I haven't used before and read the story.

And if it's interesting and I can picture what it would be like drawing it, then I'll go ahead with that.

And I also try to mix it up for different regions of the country or even internationally.

We've had people from other countries write in very often but yeah, there's so many of them and I really love getting them.

And I enjoy doing the Kitty Corner a lot.

- Well, Peter, they are telling us we are out of time.

I wanna thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule to talk with me today.

- Oh, thank you so much, it was a real pleasure.

- I'd like to thank everyone at home for watching "Comic Culture", we will see you again soon.

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