[dramatic music] ♪ [dramatic music] ♪ [dramatic music] ♪ [dramatic music] ♪ [dramatic music] ♪ - Hello and welcome to "Comic Culture."

I'm Terence Dollard, a professor in the Department of mass communication at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke.

My guest today is writer Paul Feinstein.

Paul, welcome to "Comic Culture."

- Thank you so much for having me.

I'm really excited to talk to you, Terence.

- So you have a new comic coming out from Top Cow which is one of the image comics imprints called "A.R.C."

And I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about what this comic is.

- So, "A.R.C."

is sort of a labor of love and it's about an animal rights vigilante basically who's, you know, if you think about Batman, sort of this duality, corporate person by day, vigilante by night.

But in our world, it's saving wildlife, but it's also penetrating.

There's a global trade around ivory and you know, sex trafficking and drugs and all of this happens in Africa and it's all tied in with poaching.

And there's these big syndicates and conglomerates that control all this stuff.

And we wanted to use "A.R.C."

as a way to highlight that world and in a fictional way, break it up.

- And it's an interesting concept because we know that there are things happening throughout the world that are just ruinous to the planet, ruinous to animal species, and being able to present that sort of issue in a way that doesn't come across as maybe like a "National Geographic" documentary, but in a way that has a story that can connect audiences to the plight of endangered species.

That's gotta be a sort of a fine line.

And I know that your background is as a travel writer, so how do you sort of get the facts in there, but also make it a compelling story?

- Story is story.

You gotta have the good elements of storytelling.

You need good villains, you need ticking clocks.

You need good character arcs.

You need MacGuffins, you need twists and turns just like any other story.

But in this world, I think it was really important to myself, but also to Matt, who runs Top Cow, to really layer in the real stuff.

The stuff that we're in the middle of a great extinction event.

We're in the middle of mass deforestation, we're in the middle of fish stocks getting depleted around the world.

We're in the middle of a drug epidemic.

And so, all of those things are real and they all sort of sadly get highlighted in Africa and different countries more so than others.

But like, you know, we wanted to make sure that that part of this comic was real because it is real.

And you know, this is sort of our own fantasy of how we wanna solve it.

But obviously, you can't go off and kill people who kill animals, but we really wanna show people that this stuff, it's really happening.

I mean, there are child soldiers who get drugged and you know, that's how they're controlled.

And there's massive poaching syndicates that are selling horns from rhinos and tusks from elephants for medicine in China.

Like, this stuff is real.

It's like, it's not a fake thing.

And the illicit nature of it all just, it all traffics in this underbelly of drugs, sex, culture, you know, and it all ties in with animals as well.

It's a sad, sad world.

And so, we wanna make sure that that's shown.

That real stuff is actually, it is real, it is happening.

- The natural world is something that we tend to, as a species, not think we're a part of, but we are an animal, we are part of the ecosystem and what affects one species is going to have an impact on us.

So, you know, as you're kind of coming across these issues through your travels and your other work, how do you start to get that thread for that story that you think it's going to be interesting and then sort of make that leap to make it into a comic?

- I will say that my travel writing or just my traveling through my work has informed my opinions.

You know, I think the genesis of this idea came about between my brother and I and we talk a lot about these issues.

I think we're very attuned to what is happening in the world.

We both are very big travelers and we both have spent extensive amounts of time in Africa.

And I think that, you know, how does it come about as like, you know, you see something, you know, I've seen, you know, these poor elephants in Thailand that are just used for, you know, tourism and I've seen tigers that have been drugged and that people can just sit and pet.

And I've seen, I've just seen horrible things.

And all of that just sort of sticks in your head and you use it as fodder for the art to make sure that people understand this stuff happens.

And it, you know, it's more just, it's sad to like have to go back into your travels and 'cause you see a lot of this stuff.

I feel the same way about any sort of like colonial travel where, you know, you go to Hawaii and then the locals are putting on a hula dance for you.

I hate all that stuff and I hate it equally with animals being paraded for people's benefit.

And it's a tough line.

I think zoos are important in a way because zoos can educate children and there's a lot of good science that happens.

But there are zoos, like there's a zoo in Panama.

I mean, I basically call it the Holocaust Zoo because it's just this horrifying place where there's these giant animals in the smallest cages possible.

And it is just sad and all of it is sad and it sticks in your head and you use it to help, you know, color your fictional work because, you know, once you've seen these things, it comes across more on the page because you can actually write about it from an intelligent point of view, I guess.

- It's interesting because we are, where we record our program, we're in a very agricultural part of North Carolina, and it's not uncommon for you to see hog trucks on the highway or trucks filled with chickens driving, I guess, to the final destination.

And, you know, when you start to see things on social media, I'm thinking of the, in China there's a multi-story hog production place, I guess.

And you look inside and it is, like you're saying, it is something akin to the Holocaust.

It's nightmarish.

And yet, that's the sort of stuff that we're eating.

It just makes you, again, there's that connection between us and the world that we sometimes try to close our eyes to.

So, when you're writing this, and I know I've kind of touched on it before, but you know, you've gotta make this story something that is agreeable so that you can get your message out.

So, how do you kind of, again, balance between, look people, this is happening and look people, this is entertainment?

- You know, in anything that you write, you don't wanna be preachy.

So, we really tried to give our characters very clear points of view and I think that comes from a really genuine place.

So, you know, you have, you know, within these characters there's conflict, you know, it's like, hey, you're eating meat, but you're saving animals.

Or hey, you think eye for an eye is fine with animals, but it's not with humans.

But like, there's all these, you know, every situation has a moral quandary.

And I don't know, it's tricky.

Like human beings are not black and white.

We're complicated creatures with lots of gray area.

Like, I'm a traveling food journalist for my job.

I have to eat everything they put in front of me.

And I have real problems with eating lots of different kinds of meat and fish because I know where stuff comes from and I know how it's farmed or raised, and I think it's, you know, I have lines like, I won't eat foie gras, I won't eat babies.

Like I won't eat lamb, I won't eat baby back ribs.

But like, there are certain things that you eat and you sort of, you just hope that when someone says it's sustainable that they're actually telling the truth and usually they're not.

So, it's actually a very hard, you know, in my own life, I think that's probably reflected in the characters in this book is that like we all have this duality that we have to deal with.

And the more you know, the harder it gets I would say.

- This is a book that's being published by Image by the imprint at Top Cow.

So, dealing with Matt Hawkins, I know that he is a forward thinker.

I had him on the show a few months back and he was talking about how he's trying to read and keep up on things that later on become sort of mainstream thoughts and ideas, especially in the field of science.

So, how do you get in touch with Matt to kind of pitch the story or be asked to pitch a story like the one we see in "A.R.C.?"

- Like I said, my brother and I had this idea from the start and we got connected to Matt through some mutual colleagues and we pitched this to Matt and he didn't just spark to it.

He dove in feet first.

You know, Matt was really instrumental in a lot of the like, extra deep, deep, deep research into this world.

And so, look, I just, sometimes you just never know what publisher will think an idea is good or not because they have their own personal interest behind it.

And Matt, like you said, is a real deep thinker and he decided to just dive into this world and he got hooked on it.

We were already hooked on it and we felt that other people should be as well.

And it just struck a chord with him, I think, in a way that he just really got in there and found just some really unbelievable, horrifying things that really helped us write this in a way that was more true to life I think.

- And I know that Matt is a great sort of mentor to help writers sort of get into writing comics, which is a different discipline I would imagine than writing an article for a magazine or for a website.

So, how did that work for you where you were now writing in this very specific style of comic scripting?

- I have a multifaceted background.

The first 10 years of my professional career, I worked in Hollywood in film and television.

So I was writing, I repped to William Morris as a screenwriter.

So, I have a pretty extensive background in writing fiction.

Now, as far as writing a comic book, no idea how to do it.

So, to Matt's credit, he put me together with Ryan Kaji who has written many, many comic books and is brilliant and amazing at it.

And so I had the story, you know, really fleshed out like with the beats and the arcs and the world building.

And Ryan was able to really streamline it into comic form 'cause I honestly, I don't know how to do that.

And I'm learning, I'm getting better because, you know, going through this process, but that's not my expertise and I'm a big fan of relying on experts.

So, Matt and Ryan were incredibly instrumental in getting this over the finish line.

- I know that a lot of folks might think that, you know, comics are sort of a one-to-one analog between screenwriting because they're both visual mediums.

And I was reading the other day, an artist was saying, you know, "Comics are not storyboards, they're a different sort of medium."

So, is Ryan sort of giving you the like, "Hey, we can take this passage here and we can break it up into three panels instead of being three pages," kind of get that same sort of thing?

Or is it just, he's just looking at what you have and sort of doing like, I guess an adaptation?

- No, I mean Ryan definitely just took what I had and he, you know, I just marvel, I look at, it kind of is like a storyboard.

I mean, you look at the actual script that he puts together and as a comic book writer, I mean, I hope I'm not speaking out of turn for him, but it's my understanding that as a comic book writer, you are writing it for the artist because the artist needs to be able to interpret everything that's on that page and draw the thing in a very, very specific, meaningful way.

It's a very technical way to write, but so is screenwriting to an extent.

And you know, in screenwriting you're writing it for a director to put on screen.

And so, it's really interesting to watch Ryan take sections of dialogue or action and break it up into one panel or four panels or however he does it to really give the artist room to work and play.

And it's just really fun to watch that process.

- And is this something where, again, once this story is given to the artist, are you given the chance to sort of go back and do like, I guess that that Marvel pass where you're looking at the art and saying, "You know, the dialogue here would work better if I did this, or the art here means I don't even need the dialogue?"

- Yeah, it was a real collaborative effort.

You know, Ryan, before he even went to the artist, Ryan, you know, he sent over his scripts to Matt and myself and we went through them and tweaked things here and there, and then yeah, it was given over to the artists and once that comes back, you know, you make more tweaks based on how it comes out.

And I guess to quote Matt, you sort of have until the day they hit publish to make any changes.

And so, it feels a little better to know that like, oh, we caught something right at the end and you can adjust it in some way, shape, or form.

- You know, are you given the chance to sort of look at the book before it hits the stands and just kind of say, I guess you've got some copies there perhaps that you can refer to.

So, you know, you kind of get that sneak peek and then can kind of.

- Yeah, I got a lot of pages to edit and look at and go through to make sure that it looks good on the page.

So to speak.

- And this story in "A.R.C."

Is, as I recall, designed to be a one shot.

But is this something where you've left enough threads here and there that you can come back and revisit either the characters or definitely the subject matter?

- So, we built a world that is, it's not finished.

And so yeah, it's, I mean like if you, I mean this is really giving us a lot of credit, but if you were to take like "Star Wars" episode four and never ever had another movie, you'd be like, "That was really great.

Like, they blew up the Death Star and everything was fine.

We're good."

So we have, you know, an ending to the battle, but we don't have an ending to the war.

And so, if Matt and the team at Top Cat wanna continue to do this, I would love to continue to do it.

- And you know, it's interesting because Top Cat, they are very selective, as I said, Matt treats, it's almost like a boutique publisher.

So, when you are working with that imprint, are you thinking now that maybe there's some other ideas, some other cause that you want to tap into that, you know, you can say, "Hey Matt, you know, I've got this great idea."

- Yes and no.

I'm so busy in my other professional life as a journalist, it's really hard to juggle even another idea on top of it.

So, I have a million, but at the moment I, like, I have a book deadline March 15th, this book's coming out beginning of March, so I'm pretty tapped out [chuckling].

- You know, deadlines are a big part of both comics and journalism and in this case the book that you're working on.

So, as a professional writer, it's not like you're waiting for the muse.

So, how do you kind of, you know, balance your schedule so that way you're able to do, you know, writing without feeling like you're burning yourself at both ends, but also have a life and get the writing done that you're satisfied with?

- I guess it depends on what like stage of your career you're in.

When you get to a point where you can actually say no to certain things, it's probably helpful because you can sort of judge your time better.

I think there's a lot of, you know, I'm a freelance writer, I'm a freelance journalist, and so I don't work for any publication, so there's a lot of peaks and valleys.

Like at the moment, I am in an insane peak.

I have, I mean, I'm writing two books right now.

I've got "A.R.C.," I've got a bunch of stuff.

Like, it's hard and it's not just like stuff for me.

I mean, this is like published stuff.

And so, you take the wins when you can and you try to factor that in.

Like, as I've gotten older, I'm really good at judging my time.

Like, I'm a very fast writer, so I know how long things take and so I'm usually a procrastinator, but on big projects, you can't do it.

Like, you have to see that every day has to be a chip it away day and you get to the finish line that way.

I don't know, it's just hard.

It's a hard question.

Everyone's different, everyone works differently, but like, as a freelancer, it's peaks and valleys, man, sometimes there's a month I'll have nothing.

And then there's like this first quarter of this year where it's been literally insane.

So, yeah.

- Now, I have the, here at the university I teach many different television production classes, including screenwriting and one of the things I talk about with my students is that mindset that you have to continue to write, even if it doesn't, you know, if it's not there, getting something on a page is having better than having nothing on the page.

So, when you finish that first draft, is revision a really important part of what you do?

- I don't think I've ever just had one draft.

Yeah, I mean, like, you're touching on a couple things.

One is, you know, write a page a day, you have a book in a year, you know?

Write a page a day, you have a screenplay in three months.

Write a page a day and you have a pilot script in a month.

Like done, just vomit it out.

It doesn't really matter.

Like just get it on the page.

And then, there's no human being in the history of writing who's ever been perfect on a first draft.

It just, it doesn't exist.

So like, my advice to younger writers is just vomit it onto the page, get it out, because you're gonna have to rewrite it anyway, no matter how good or bad you thought it was.

You're gonna have to rewrite it, you're just gonna have to, and I usually let things sit for a day or two, so I forget what I wrote.

And then you can go back in there with a clear look.

I think that's probably the best.

- I guess a lot of us professionally will do something and because we're so closely in tune with what we're doing, we sort of lose that critical perspective.

And we tend to, whether it's imposter syndrome, whether it's just, I've been staring at it so long, I hate the project, therefore it must be terrible.

So, giving yourself that chance to sort of look at it with fresh eyes seems like it is crucial to see what works and what needs to be tweaked.

And also, to give yourself that pat on the back, like, yeah, I did a pretty good job in this section.

- No question.

I mean, it depends on what the thing is.

Like if I'm writing a dumb list about the best pizza places in Los Angeles, I'm gonna probably write it the day that it's due and don't really care that much about rereading it.

My editor will tell me if it sucks or not, and I'll work that out.

But if it's like for "A.R.C."

or if it's for another book, or it's a screenplay, like that's stuff you have to let it rest because there's too many threads to be pulled at to keep in your head.

Like, if you change this one thing, it changes six things down the line.

Like, you can't keep track of it until you give it some room to breathe.

And so, I think the best thing to do with any bulk sized work is to let it rest and come back with fresh eyes a day, two days, a week, sometimes a month.

Like, you got to because you gotta forget what you did so that your brain doesn't trick you when rereading it 'cause your brain will trick you.

You'll skip things that you know are there.

And to not skip those lines, you have to come at it fresh.

- I'm reminded of Matt Fraction once said that he learned comics helped him get over being precious.

So he was able to, you know, I know the comic has to be done, I can keep rewriting, I can keep rewriting it.

So, knowing that he had that deadline every month meant that he would just kind of say, "Okay, it's not gonna be perfect.

It's gonna be as best as it can be."

So, do you find that's the same thing with other deadlines?

Not necessarily with "A.R.C.," but that you're kind of saying, "You know what, I can keep going over this, or I can say, you know, at draft four it's as good as I think it should be?"

- I'm both the best person and the worst person to answer that question.

Like, because there are deadlines are the best thing in the world.

Like I think they force your brain to work in a different way against pressure that really helps, you know, push things out.

Especially like if there's a reward at the end, like you want that byline or you want whatever the money is or you want whatever, it's like there's this thing that forces your brain to like go into action and that's great, but at the same time, like I've rewritten the same like dumb novel like a hundred times and it'll never be perfect.

And it's just sitting there and it's just like, and I'm sure I'll do it again because I'm a sucker and that's just what happens.

But, I don't have a deadline on that.

I don't have someone pushing me on that.

And so, maybe that's maybe my own enemy is just not having the pressure.

- If you have a project that is near and dear to your heart, but not necessarily one that you feel compelled to, you know, maybe you don't have that deadline, is it good to just kind of let it keep simmering and go back to it day after day or month after month or you know, in six months go back to it, or maybe a year later and go back to it and just keep tweaking and chiseling away till you finally have the great American novel?

- I think about like very successful writer friends of mine who have all said basically the same thing, "Just write something else."

Like, just anything.

Just write something else.

You can come back to this in 10 years.

If it's ever green, like there's no, you know, there's no reason for it to like be now.

If there's no date limit on it or something like that, then just like, just write something else and they're right.

And I will, but I also won't, but I will.

And so, like I told you, I'm the best and worst person to talk to about that.

- I know for me, if I'm working on a project and you know, you kind of hit that wall, it's always good to do something else, whether it was, you know, walking the dog or, you know.

- There's always something better.

- Yeah, just do something else and let your brain sort of work in the background and kind of figure out what's working and what's not working.

When you're working on a new character or something, you know, that's maybe going to be the next story and you are kind of looking at a project that you're working on, how do you know not to put it in that project and is there ever a temptation with a great idea to sort of fold it into something because now it's going to be two great ideas that taste great together?

Or is it going to be, you know, something where you know that this is a wholly and separate thing and I'm just gonna get that blank sheet of paper out?

- There's no one answer to that question.

It all depends on the thing, you know?

Like sometimes I've had, yeah, sometimes I've folded into previous things that are great.

I mean, I don't know, I think I never understand writers who say they read nothing 'cause they don't wanna like taint their own ideas.

I think it's insane.

I read as much as I possibly can about as many subjects as I possibly can because I just, the second you stop learning about new stuff, I think your writing dies.

And so, every day I'm reading, you know, I listen to podcasts, I read newspapers, I read magazines, I read books.

I watch movies.

I try to consume as much content as possible because I just think it makes me smarter and it makes me a better writer, sometimes it makes me jealous and sometimes it inspires me and sometimes it makes me realize like, that's all this was?

Like, that's not good enough.

I'm way better than that, or whatever it may be.

But I just think like, yeah, again, there's no one answer to that question.

It's just you just have to be able to absorb stuff to make your own stuff better.

That's all.

- Well, Paul, they're telling us that we are out of time.

Is there a website or someplace on social media that the audience could find you?

- My website is MrPaulfeinstein.com.

That's M-Rm not M-I-S-T-E-R. And all my social media is the same, MrPaulFeinstein, @MrPaulFeinstein on Instagram, Twitter, or Facebook, wherever you wanna find me.

- Well Paul, I'd like to thank you for taking time out of your schedule to talk with me today.

I'd like to thank you at home for watching "Comic Culture."

We will see you again soon.

[dramatic music] ♪ [dramatic music] ♪ [dramatic music] ♪ - [Narrator] "Comic Culture" is a production of the Department of mass communication at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke.

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