[triumphant music] ♪ [triumphant music continues] ♪ [triumphant music continues] ♪ [triumphant music continues] - Hello and welcome to "Comic Culture."

I'm Terrence Dollard a professor in the Department of Mass Communication at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke.

My guest today is writer Hannah Rose May.

Hannah, welcome to "Comic Culture."

- Hi, thank you for having me.

- Hannah, you wrote a really interesting series called "Rogues' Gallery," which sort of looks at, I guess, the toxic side of fandom and I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about how you were inspired to come up with this really clever series.

- Oh, well thank you for the kind words.

Everyone likes to be told that they're interesting and clever.

Yeah, it's funny 'cause I, you know, I always wanted to write a comic book and I've been in comics in the fandom space for as long as I can't remember being a massive fan myself.

And unfortunately, it's hard to not witness the toxicity online when new IP comes out or IP is adapted into other mediums.

Like we've all seen the discourse online and I really fell deep into research on that after I attended the premiere of "Star Wars" for "The Last Jedi," I got to see Kelly Marie Tran on the red carpet and like, obviously, as an actor that is the dream.

Everyone wants to be in "Star Wars."

Well I definitely wanna be in "Star Wars."

[laughs] So I'm watching Kelly on the red carpet, like admiring and everyone just, like at one point she even like felt to her knees because she was so overwhelmed and everyone was just so enamored with her and thought it was incredibly adorable how excited she was to then fast forward five days later and you're witnessing her being like ran off the internet because people were so upset by the character of Rose.

And that's just, it was heartbreaking to witness and it's just so unfair because this is someone who clearly worked their whole life as an actor to get to this point and had absolutely no involvement in the writing or creating of that character.

They're just playing the part and they're playing the part how so many people behind the cameras want them to play that part, but yet they're being blamed personally.

And it was just, it was really hard to see and I felt terrible for someone that I didn't know but felt instantly connected to and I just, yeah, it sat with me for so long and then I end up deep diving and it was hard to not realize and it's really evident that the majority of the people that people go after are women and they're like Ruby Rose, Kelly Marie Tran, Constance Wu, all these incredibly talented women who have been associated with major IP and then there's fans who are just really upset and really direct their hate, like they literally personally blame these people for their involvement with their beloved IP.

These are women who have absolutely no say in what they're portraying, they're just doing their job.

And I just felt like we see it online, we hear both sides, but we're not really discussing it.

So I was like, "How can I talk about it in a interesting way?"

And I just felt like by hitting it head-on through comic books, talking about like the metanarrative, a comic book within a comic book, I thought that was personally interesting to me.

So I'm glad that other people found it interesting too.

- It's a fascinating arc that you put together and what I find really, really, I thought was really a well-reasoned way to put this, you start the first issue, it's all about these fans who are talking about how their beloved IP, this character of Red Rogue is being ruined by this actress.

And we sort of go along with them on their journey and then we get to issue two and it's about the actress and everything that she's done.

And like you were saying, this is a woman who is hired to do a job and does it to the best of her ability, the way that producers want it, the way that she feels it's true to the characters.

And it's just this great mix, this juxtaposition of these two viewpoints.

And then they eventually do meet in, I guess, issue three.

So when you're coming up with your antagonist, these fans, these toxic fans, how do you sort of come up with that, you know, so that they're somewhat sympathetic and then when you're getting into, you know, Maisie, how do you get into something that is, you know, obviously, she's not the the bad person they're making her out to be.

- Well, it's funny 'cause with "Rogues' Gallery" and a lot of like critics and people have pointed out, the thing that most people enjoy about it is what you just pointed out is that like we did open with the Rogues and that was very deliberate.

Both issues technically could have been a first like is issue two could have been the first issue.

You could have opened from Maisie's perspective.

But I wanted the readers to see how easy it is to judge somebody that they don't know.

So when you're reading issue one, I kind of wanted to be like, "Gosh, I'm on their side.

Like now this person sounds terrible."

And then I wanted to flip the narrative and show it from her perspective and you do realize that like, "No, this is, this is not at all the case.

We're just judging someone based on what other people have to say and based on what the internet have to say and what the media is saying.

But that's not at all true."

And I think with the Rogues, I wanted the group of Rogues to all be very different 'cause fandom, everyone's from all different walks of life.

But for Kyle particularly, I wanted to show that he just loves fandom and he just loves the IP and he just wants to be involved in something.

So for him, this group of friends that he's involved with, they share this one major common love, which is, you know, the "Rogues' Gallery," which is the Red Rogue.

And I wanted to show that Kyle is coming into it from a place of like just wanting to be accepted rather than there's other people in the group who have ulterior motives.

I didn't wanna be like, "The fans are bad," because I'm a fan, we're not bad.

I just wanted to show how easy it is to fall in line with other people's opinions.

- It is interesting because I guess I'm fortunate in that I grew up reading comics at a time when the internet wasn't a part of it because I can see it is there is an attractive, I guess, an attraction to finding people who share your thoughts or share your enjoyment and then, you know, you kind of feed off of their, I guess, toxicity a little bit and you can easily be led astray.

And that's certainly what we see in this group of friends who are working together, talking about how much they don't like this character that they keep tuning into every week.

- Hate watching essentially.

- They keep watching.

So when you have, you know, again "Star Wars," every time a "Star Wars" movie opens it is the number one movie for weeks.

So, you know, in your, I guess research, in your estimation as a writer, as someone who's involved in being in front of a camera, how do you sort of balance out this idea of people who love something but hate it at the same time?

- The problem right now with the internet and you're fortunate that you were able to form your own opinions reading stuff personally and not, you know, judging, you know, there's a massive pros and cons in there, and we don't need to talk about the internet, we know the pros and cons, but for me when it comes to IP is that reviews and everything else are always out so like well ahead of you even forming your own opinion of something.

It's so hard to sometimes go into something with an entirely new open mindset and like to be able to form your own opinions without already having been like a little shadowed with something that you read online.

And that was the major thing for "Rogues' Gallery."

I just wanted to show how easy it is to fall for someone else's perspective and for you to not really be able to form your own because of something on the internet.

We're in this weird time where it's so easy to jump online and like put hate out there and have tons of people like it and then suddenly you feel like you're like, "Yeah, my opinion was accurate."

We're in this like weird time where it's like kind of trendy to dislike something versus love something which is really sad.

And I feel like you might, if someone actually posted online like that they love something, they might get the same reaction versus posting online that they hate something.

Yeah, I'm gone off a bit of a tangent there.

I have like massive love and hate with the internet and I, yeah.

[laughs] - Well it's true because, you know, only on the internet can you say, "Boy, I really like that episode of this show," and have 10 people say you're stupid for liking that.

And one person is like, "Oh, come on now guys.

Both sides."

So it is this weird machine of ideas that don't necessarily make sense in the real world.

I mean things that we would never say to someone in person we feel very comfortable saying on the keyboard with that, I guess, the anonymity of that kind of connection.

But in this case you've got these folks who do meet every week and they talk about this show that they really enjoy but don't enjoy watching.

Now you've got this point of view of the actress, Maisie, who is going through this whole sort of, I guess, this one thing I was really taken by was the depiction of Maisie as being a victim of her own success.

She can't even go to a restaurant without the owner of the restaurant calling the paparazzi.

So you know, when you're building that into the story, how much of that is based on that red carpet experience?

How much of that is based on just, you know, this is just kind of the way society is?

- Yeah, it was, you know, I've obviously, again being on the internet, I've seen plenty of actors fall for, you know, where they've tweeted saying like where they've had fans upset that they didn't stop at the airport and they didn't sign signatures or they didn't do this.

And then they'll come out and they'll say, you know, like, "I never wanted fame.

I just wanted to, you know, do my job."

And they're like... And then you have the other perspective of being like, well unfortunately fandom like being famous as part of your job.

So it is the, you know, the push and pull and I wanted to play with that to a degree.

But the real thing with Maisie is I wanted you to feel like she is not only imprisoned in her home by the third act, imprisoned in the role, That this isn't new for her.

That she has been, even though she's physically imprisoned by the Rogues at some point throughout "Rogues' Gallery," that she has essentially been imprisoned for her whole time on the show.

That this character has, you know, had her essentially in chains but she does it for her love for the character that she has sacrificed so much to play this character.

But then on the other side of it, she's being told that she's done absolutely nothing but destroy this IP, this fandom.

And I think that there's a lot of actors out there and I have a lot of friends involved in major IP who have given, you know, large portions of their life to characters and now people only see them as that character and they've kind of lost their own identity along the way.

So I did wanna play with like blurring the line between that person and the character they're playing.

So I think for Maisie, I think that one thing about "Rogues' Gallery" is like that for people outside of entertainment, I think we do a good job of portraying that, of like showing that.

And that has been a conversation for a lot of people outside of the entertainment who are reading "Rogues' Gallery," which is interesting 'cause obviously as an actor, I mean personally I would love to be involved in a major IP, but yes, I can see, obviously, the pros and cons of what that would do.

- Now, you say you want to be involved in a major IP and one of the things is this book is being published by Image, but also if I'm not mistaken, "Rogues' Gallery has been optioned into possibly being on the screen, whether it's television or films.

So, you know, how do you sort of get Image involved and then how do you sort of get into, you know, marketing this IP to another type of medium?

- Yeah, so with "Rogues' Gallery" it was funny because, you know, I had envisioned it as a feature like that's why it's a four-issue miniseries.

It made sense as a feature.

And a lot of people came to the table where they wanted it as a feature, but Don Cheadle's production company saw the interest in a TV show because they wanna spend more time with the characters, they wanna spend more time understanding what drives someone to go and do this.

They really wanna show all corners of fandom and all corners of the internet.

They want you to feel for Maisie, they want you to feel for these characters.

And so by doing it as a show, it's really interesting because we're gonna get to see what really drives people over the edge.

Really gonna see from both sides.

The way we got to open the "Rogues' Gallery" from the Rogues perspective and then from Maisie's, we'll get to do the same with the show.

So yeah, it's gonna be a show with Don Cheadle.

And as for the Image side of it, I'd only pitched Image, Image we're the only publisher that I pitched, which was really interesting.

Image obviously are the publisher out there that allow creator-owned deals.

You own 100% of the IP, which is really nice.

So I always knew that I wanted the idea with Image.

I just didn't think that my first book out the gate would be with Image.

But I casually pitched it to Declan Shalvey who's obviously a very established comic book writer, artist and writer.

And he was like, "Hey, this is kind of interesting.

Let me, you know, see what my editor thinks."

And he went to Heather Antos and Heather was like, "I love it.

I think Image would dig it."

And yeah, we pitched them what it would look like, what the arc would look like and right away they said yes.

So I didn't really have to go and do the rounds with any other publisher.

It was, you know, straight out right to Image, but Image, yeah image are great.

They are very hands-on and very hands-off at the same time.

You know, like they basically will print your book and be there when you need them, but they really trust you to deliver.

It's a great place for a first time person.

- Well I was gonna say, I've spoken to a few of the folks at Image and the one sense that I get, especially from the partners like Jim Valentino is that their goal is to help people do the best they can and let them do it.

So it's that support and it's that, you know, I guess just, "You know what you're doing, make that great comic."

So when it comes to working with an artist, how do you pick a creative partner?

- I got really lucky with Justin Mason.

Crazy lucky to think about it now because Justin and I, this was both of our first time so we get to forever share in this experience.

Justin has obviously gone on to do "Spider-Punk," he's killing it now and he's is doing something, I don't know if it's been announced yet, so I'm afraid to talk about what he is actually doing.

But Justin is gonna be an absolute rockstar in comics.

I feel like Justin's gonna be on par with Marc Silvestri and all the big dogs that we talk about today.

Justin was a friend and is a friend of Declan's and they wanted to work together on something.

So Declan always knew that he wanted to do something with Justin.

They had a pitch fall through at another publisher of something.

You know, comics, it happens.

And Justin just happened to be available.

So then Declan was like, "Well would you be interested in Justin Mason?"

I, again, had no idea who Justin was, he had no idea who I was and we just talked and Justin was down and, you know, I liked the idea of being a first timer with someone else who was also a first timer.

So we got to like figure it out together.

So again, I got superbly lucky with Justin and we worked very hands-on 'cause I had already had like "Rogues' Gallery," so I didn't know how to make a comic book.

I only knew entertainment.

I only knew the ins and outs of like what it would take to essentially like write a screenplay or write a show or write a, which is very, very different because as a comic book you have to not only essentially write the script like you would in TV or entertainment, but you have to be very descriptive in what they're wearing, what's happening in the background.

You have to think in panels, which was the hardest part for me.

You also have to think in sounds like you know, it was new.

I was unaware that as a comic book writer you had to basically put in the, you know, the bang and the pow and you know, the whispers and all of that, which massive, massive applause to Hassan my letterer who is in every comic book that you can think of, Hassan letters.

He is exceptional.

It was very interesting, essentially I think for how long it takes to write a script, I think add three times to that to how long it takes to write a comic book.

[laughs] - Comics are a collaborative venture, much like film and television, but as a writer, someone who is coming in from a different point-of-view, like you're saying a different discipline, you know, are you leaning on the writer to sort of point you in how you know they work best with the descriptions that you're coming up with?

Or is it something where you're seeing what they're delivering and you're able to then, you know, adapt sort of that old-school Marvel method where you look at the art and then work on the dialogue a little bit here and there?

- Yeah, I think, you know, since "Rogues' Gallery," I have been fortunate to be able to, I'm writing on some major IP now for other folks, so I'm coming in on a story that's already been developed.

So that's interesting.

So in that area, I'm trusting that they know because it's already established, For "Rogues' Gallery" it was different because "Rogues" was, I was so married to "Rogues'."

"Rogues'" had lived in, I keep calling it "Rogues'," I should really call it "Rogues' Gallery," but it's like the code name now with the group.

You know, "Rogues' Gallery" had lived in my mind for so long that I knew every ounce of it, every ounce of that what I wanted it to be.

But you also have to be okay giving space to allow your artist to put their own twist on it.

So I would give Justin so much, but then if Justin came back and had his own spin on it, then I'd be like, "Great," you know?

I wanted to leave room for Justin to have his own fun with it and to have, you know, to put his flair on it.

But yeah, I think it depends if you're coming in on someone else's idea, then obviously it's different.

But for "Rogues' Gallery" it was one of those things where I very much was like, "I'd like their hair color to be like this.

I want them to have this costume."

You know, "There's this poster in the background," like I was overly descriptive in a way that I haven't been on what I'm doing since.

But yeah, there's the push and pull.

I think when you meet with an artist, they'll tell you what they want from you and obviously you do pitch pages early on so you can get a sense for each other.

But yeah, you don't wanna be like too hands-on.

You don't want someone to think that they haven't got free range to play.

- The story that is "Rogues' Gallery" is, it is, I guess, suspense, I wouldn't quite call it horror, but I wouldn't quite call it comedy.

- Yeah, It's, I guess, thriller.

- And it has a lot of, I guess, real world sort of stakes and action in it.

So I'm thinking of a fight scene, I don't wanna give anything away for those who are going to read it and enjoy it.

But the fight scenes- - You can spoil it.

The books out.

[chuckles] - The fight scenes are very down-to-earth and somebody may get hit once and that's it.

Because in the real world if you got punched, chances are you're not gonna get up again.

So as you are approaching this medium of comics, which is known for, you know, we can have "Star Wars" meets "The Muppet Show," you know, and yet you're taking it and making it this small, really relatable story.

Is that something that you're kind of just, because you're so married to this story, you're not willing to kind of expand and maybe make the action scenes a little bit more cinematic?

- I think we could have played with the action a little more had we done an additional issue, which we did talk about.

We did talk about initially doing five issues instead of four issues.

But for me, I felt like, you know, I wanted to make the 3.99 worth it for someone to pick it up.

And you know, there is the slow burn of doing the book, like plenty of series I've read that are slow burns and you know, I could have dragged it out and then we could have given a whole issue, the fourth issue could have been more space for those action scenes and Justin would've killed it 'cause he's incredible at action.

Personally, I would've loved to see it.

But I just felt like to make the price tag worth it, I wanted it to be like a page-turner and I didn't wanna beat around the bush.

And at the end of the day with "Rogues' Gallery," we have been teasing since issue one that it is a home invasion.

So I kind of just wanted to get to it and like, you know, have the audience eat their cake and not delay it.

But the nice thing about "Rogues' Gallery" continuing on and going into another medium is, especially, with doing a TV show, we can really elaborate on those fight scenes.

We can really elaborate on that suspense, you know, because obviously a home invasion, there can be the instant like pa-pow and someone is out, but I think the direction that we're gonna take the show there will be a lot more suspenseful because, not to, I guess, give the major twist away, I'm fine, the book is out, they could read it.

But with "Rogues' Gallery," the big twist that comes, which I think is what people most enjoy about it, is you find out that it's a reenactment of the comic book within the comic book.

It's a reenactment of a comic book called "Red Rogue Down."

That's why these, I'm like, "How much do I actually wanna give away?"

But that's why like Dodge is taking these steps and doing these odd things that you wouldn't necessarily do if you were just breaking into someone's house.

So with the likes of the show, we'll really be able to pull on those like weird little reenactments that he's doing.

So the choices that he picks to fight, every movement that he makes, every thing that he says, it's from a comic book.

It's very sadistic in that way.

- It's really interesting too because in the book they are talking about how Maisie is not worthy of the title of of the Red Rogue, and yet she knows the dialogue from the comic and is able to recall that's exactly what's happening and, you know, kind of predict the moves that are going on there.

One thing I really liked about this book was that it is four issues, self-contained, like you said, and the story ends and there's a resolution and we see the characters move on.

Again, without giving away things that are going to happen with the television series, it's something where we're looking at one season and done or is this something that, you know, you could find a thread here or there and suddenly we have a 10-season run?

- I mean, just 'cause "Rogues' Gallery" is done doesn't mean there's not gonna be a second volume.

- Okay, I like that.

[Hannah chuckles] - You know, at the ending of "Rogues'," there's a character that escaped, there's a character that's imprisoned, there's characters that have died, you know, but there's stuff that's still left unresolved.

The ending, the big ending of "Rogues' Gallery," some people picked up on it, some people didn't.

With the ending of "Rogues' Gallery," we really wanted to show the audience that Kyle started this journey with his obsession being the Red Rogue, being the character.

But with all the events that unfolded and him getting to meet Maisie, the person who plays the Red Rogue, his obsession has changed.

So he is no longer obsessed with the Red Rogue.

He's obsessed with her.

His drawings switched from drawing the show 'cause he's sketching kind of the whole "Rogues' Gallery" to him sitting in prison sketching her.

That's even a scarier obsession because now he has a personal obsession with Maisie, and, you know, it ends with him like drawing and he is like, "I hope she likes this one."

So it's like, is he gonna try give it to her?

Is he gonna get it to her?

Like, what's gonna happen here?

So we deliberately left it like that.

But it's a very minor, minor thing within the books but major thing in the story.

- It's remarkably well done because I was reading through this book and all these themes were coming through and the action is really compelling and you feel for these characters in many different ways, both the protagonist and antagonists.

So how much of your ability to write comes from the fact that you are in fact a working actress?

- Probably, honestly, all of it.

I've always loved creating, I've always loved writing.

But it wasn't until, you know, I'd started truly auditioning that I was reading scripts and I put, you know, for all those roles that I didn't get and all those auditions that didn't go my way, they have awarded me the joy of, you know, knowing good dialogue now when it comes across my desk.

And for me, for "Rogues' Gallery," I wanted the characters to feel real.

I wanted you to read them and feel like, "Oh, I've heard someone say this before."

So I would talk out loud to myself and have like conversations with myself back and forth over what these people would say.

And so I feel for "Rogues' Gallery," honestly, definitely a large portion of it is down to me being a working actor.

Never think that one thing is not leading you to somewhere else.

[chuckles] - Well, Hannah, I want to thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule.

They're telling us that we're out of time.

If the folks wanted to find out more about you on the web, where can they locate you?

- Hannahrosemay _ on all social platforms.

- Well, thank you so much Hannah and thank you everyone at home for watching "Comic Culture."

We will see you again soon.

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