Host> Author Denny S. Bryce uses her love for writing fan fiction, which inspired her to become an author.

>> I became infatuated with writing fan fiction, and I was a huge fan of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

>> Okay.

And I wrote Spike/Buffy fanfic for a while.

Host> Her book, The Trial of Mrs. Rhinelander, tells the story of a pioneering Black journalist, a secret interracial marriage among the New York elite and the sensational divorce case that ignited an explosive battle over race and class.

Denny> It's based on a true story.

A woman named Alice Jones married a man named Kip Rhinelander, back in the twenties.

>> Okay.

>> 1924, to be exact.

But Kip and Alice had been having a very youthful, fun-loving romance for three years, but they were keeping it on the down low because he was a few years younger than her.

He was also a very wealthy young man, and she was a domestic.

Host> Denny talks with me about her expertise in historical fiction and her approach to women-centered writing.

I'm Holly Jackson.

Join us as we bring you powerful stories from both new and established Southern authors as we sit by the river.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Narrator> Major funding for By The River is provided by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina.

For more than forty years, the ETV Endowment of South Carolina has been a partner of South Carolina ETV, and South Carolina Public Radio.

>> Hi, I'm Holly Jackson, your host here for By The River.

By The River is a show that goes beyond the book.

We like to talk to the author about how they reach that story.

And we have a really great lineup for you this season.

And one I'm especially excited about today is Denny S. Bryce.

Denny, thanks so much for joining us.

>> Thank you.

We have a whole lot to talk about and there's so many books, so many places you've lived.

Denny> (laughs) Yes.

>> So every time I ask you a little something, you're like, there's a story there.

Well, great, we'll save it, 'cause here we are.

We can tell all the stories now.

Denny> Well, most of the stories.

Holly> Oh, most of them.

>> Some are secret.

Holly> Okay, I gotcha.

Well, thanks for coming by the river.

Denny> Thank you for inviting me.

I really appreciate the invitation and I'm very happy to be here.

>> Alright, so we're gonna first talk about The Trial of Mrs. Rhinelander.

And by the way, love this cover.

It's really nice.

Denny> I do too.

Holly> You do too?

>> Yeah.

Holly> Now, not every author says that.

(Denny laughs) Sometimes there's kind of this battle of that's not the, the cover I wanted, but that's the cover somebody else went with this.

I'm glad to hear you like it.

This is my first cover where they sent it and I was in love first time.

Holly> Ooh, that's a good feeling.

Denny> Absolutely.

And Kensington is the publisher.

Kensington Books is my publisher of The Trial of Mrs. Rhinelander.

And I'm just so excited it's out in the world.

And it's a story that came to me from a former editor.

It was not a, it's based on a true story.

A woman named Alice Jones married a man named Kip Rhinelander, back in the twenties.

>> Okay.

1924, to be exact.

But Kip and Alice had been having a very youthful, fun-loving romance for three years.

But they were keeping it on the down low because he was a few years younger than her.

He was also a very wealthy young man.

And she was a domestic.

She was not a woman of money or means or any of that sort of thing.

But after they married, two weeks after the marriage, he applies for an annulment in the court system because he's says to the world that she did not tell me she was a Negro.

And the story of this conflict, this interracial marriage of a society kingpin with not only a poor domestic, but also a colored girl, was scandalous, absolute New York at that time period, 1920s.

You remember some, well, you won't remember.

You weren't there.

Neither was I.

>> Right.

>> Just making clear.

But in the 1920s, you had headlines like Leopold and Loeb in Chicago, the murdering twosome.

You had the trial, the Monkey Trial, as they called it back then.

The Stokes trial was, all of these stories were front page news.

This was also in plastered front page on every newspaper in New York.

And then it spread across the country.

It was one of the most, how's the best way of describing it?

'Cause I don't want to give away all the details.

The best way of describing it, it was just, it was just scandal after scandal.

And who was she?

And that's where I dive into this story.

Who was she really?

Was she this woman that was painted in the newspaper as being a, a gold digger, someone who was hiding her race to achieve money and fame?

Was she ashamed of being a Black woman?

Did she think of herself as being a Black woman?

Her parents were from England.

Her father Jamaican, but considered Creole, which is a whole different classification during that time period when it came to what was your race?

In America, race was determined, you know, one fifth, all of these very crazy pants things, for lack of a better phrase.

So yeah, there's a lot of story here that is publicly available.

And there's story that I felt that I wanted to tell of what the research was telling me about who this woman was.

>> Sure.

So you said you got the idea from your editor.

>> Yes.

Was it just happenstance she was mentioning the story and you said, wait a minute.

>> Well... Or did she know that it needed to be written about?

>> She knew it needed to be written.

She's, she's actually no longer, she didn't end up being the editor on this book because she moved to another house.

But when I first started working with her, her name is Essy Soga, when I first started working with her on my first debut novel in, in 19- 19?

2021, flashing.

Wooo.

(Holly laughs) Did a little hundred year time travel there.

But in 2021, my debut novel Wild Women and the Blues debut.

But during my initial meeting on that book with Essy Soga, she was like, there's this story that I'd really like written.

And a year and a half later when I was pitching my new, for my new contract, this was the lead off idea.

And she loved it.

And my new editor loves it.

So it, it's really fabulous to be able to, to get this particular take on this particular woman out there.

Holly> I'm always intrigued by the way the author maybe develops changes in some way as a person or as a writer through that writing process.

And I can only imagine that had to be the case with this story.

Tell me about the research process and how maybe you feel like you're a different person because of it.

>> Well, I don't know how different, but I will say that the research on this book was extensive because the trial transcripts are available.

And it was a lengthy trial with, I mean, for example, Al Jolson was on, was one of the people, witnesses, not witnesses, but had to testify or get on, on, on the actual, in the actual courtroom.

>>Okay.

And it, you know, ridiculous.

What did he have to do?

>> Right.

You know, a singer first sound guy back in the day, what did he have to do with this story?

But it was so much about prestige and, and what they called the social register, which eventually was bought by Fortune Magazine and became the Fortune 500.

Or, you know, when they talk about the, you know, they put the Man of the Year -- (book hits table) whoop, stay there, Mrs. Rhinelander.

-- and all of that sort of stuff on, on.

But the social register back in that day was the, represented the creme de la creme of New York High Society.

And the fact that she was actually in that register was, he, he the man who married her and then tried to get out of it, ended up being taken out of the social register.

There was just the layers of, of prejudice, racism, and more so in the story, I found society.

There's definitely a hierarchy that the, the Fifth Avenue Asters and Rhinelanders, and all of that didn't want their community, their world infiltrated.

So, so I don't know how much it changed me, because I think I have witnessed that type of environment in the different places I've lived, or different experiences I've had personally.

But it became, I was fascinated by what women of color had been put through, public.

There's a certain level, there's something I won't give away unless you really wanna research it, because it would be, spoiler, just humiliation, but also resilience, strength, and finding a way through these situations that are just amazingly ridiculous at times when you, when you look at history and some of the things that come out.

But also so intriguing, you know, as a former journalist person digging through the newspaper articles, the history about the Rhinelander family, looking at photos of their home, that still exists on, you know, I think it's Madison Avenue or Fifth Avenue or what have you.

And as a former New Yorker, 'cause I also spent time in New York myself, not New Rochelle where she lived.

Alice Jones' home was in a house in New Rochelle.

But nonetheless, just seeing that and being a part of recognizing those locations and things like that.

So it was definitely an enjoyable process digging into that research and, and seeing that other side of New York at that time period.

>> Sure.

So, I know the answer ultimately is everybody, but who do you hope reads this book, and, everybody, sure.

But, and what do you hope that they get from it, that, that particular maybe demographic that you hope picks it up?

>> I'm definitely always looking for young people, I'd say.

What do they call 'em?

I don't even know what they call 'em.

Millennials?

That, that younger crowd.

>> Right.

Younger than me.

Why do I think about that crowd?

Because there's so much history that is not known.

And I want more people to be exposed, and young people being exposed to this history hopefully means they're passing it on.

I want everyone to read the book, of course.

>> Sure.

But I, I get excited when I, if I see a whole group of TikTokers getting really thrilled about The Trial of Mrs. Rhinelander, or any of my books for that matter, because I'm a fan of TikTok and I have presence as an author on TikTok and all of the social media.

But that's me and my marketing background.

>> Right.

Denny> I love anything that has a way of reaching people.

Holly> Good for you for getting into that.

Oh, yeah.

Oh yeah.

It's, it's there for the taking.

Holly> Well, I was doing some time in my head whenever you started mentioning dates, and it sounds like you really got into writing as an author during the pandemic.

Denny> Yes, yes.

And yes.

(laughter) Actually, my, this is like my fourth career being an author.

Prior to that, early days of life, I was in New York as a dancer and a very bad actress.

Holly> Ooh.

Oh, gosh.

I hope we have time to get there, because we've gotta get there.

Okay?

Denny> (laughs) Very bad actress.

But then after that, I got involved with being a public relations professional.

I mentioned that I was a, a spokesperson for a Fortune 500 company.

Actually, it was a Fortune 50 company outta Chicago for a while.

So that gave me the opportunity to get in front of cameras and do that sort of thing.

But it was mostly as a news in response to a news story of some sort.

>> Okay.

Then after that, I ran my own marketing and PR firm for a very lengthy amount of time.

You know, more than five minutes.

But, and then while I was doing that, which was traveling all over the place, doing events and what have you, I became infatuated with writing fan fiction.

And I was a huge fan of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

>> Okay.

And I wrote Spike/Buffy Fanfic for a while.

I'd come home after a long crazy day of event planning and talking to people about proposals and this, that, and the other.

And I'd relax and unwind writing fan fiction.

So that eventually led me to getting involved in the Romance Writers of America.

That led to my fascination and love of historical fiction.

Not a romance writer, but my stories will always include a love story of some sort, because that is just a part of life.

And so this is my fourth career.

Holly> Wow.

That's impressive.

All right.

We have to back up to dancing.

(Denny laughs) What type of dancing are we talking about?

Well, the crazy thing is, is that when I first started dancing, I was a theory and dance major at a college.

But my first job was with the Cleveland Ballet.

>> Really?

And then I went from there, thank God, because that was just too scary to modern dance.

And I worked in New York for a while.

I, I was part, I, I got to do some touring with Ailey two and Alvin Ailey Company.

Some of the stars from that and some other forms of dance, did that for a while.

And then the bad acting came in.

(laughter) So, I did that.

Holly> Hmm, I'm gonna have to do some YouTube searching.

Denny> No, it's not there.

Holly> It's not there?

>> It's not there.

Thank God.

Holly> You're before that?

>> I'm before the internet.

Denny> I didn't give too much away by saying that, but yeah.

Holly> I love that.

Okay.

Well, you've led an exciting life.

Wow.

Denny> It's been interesting.

Holly> -- to do all this stuff.

Holly> Okay, and then book critic.

I wanna hear about that.

Denny> Oh, yes.

This is the first time I've met a book critic that I know of.

>> Yeah.

Holly> What's that experience like?

Denny> It's fabulous.

I was recruited by a person who was in charge of the NPR National Public Radio book critic section.

And I had the pleasure of working with Petra for a few years as a book critic.

What I really wanted to do was share my enjoyment of a book.

I certainly included critique, but my job was, to me, was to get more people reading.

That was my approach to being a book critic.

So I had some fabulous books that you can look up, Denny S. Bryce NPR, and you can see my reviews.

I, I think I did about 10 or 12, if not more.

And then I did some roundups for them.

Occasionally, I, I still do some, but the schedule, my life schedule has changed quite a bit.

Holly> Quite busy, I'll bet.

Denny> Mm-hm, mm-hm.

Holly> But it seems like you like it that way.

Denny> Yeah.

I, I really do.

I, I'm, you mentioned the pandemic, and I wrote constantly through that time period, because that's when I relocated from DC to... Where am I living now?

Savannah.

Holly> Savannah, which had to be a big change.

Denny> Well, my son and his wife live in Savannah.

Holly> Okay.

Denny> So I, I, you know... Holly> That's the draw.

Denny> That was the draw.

And so, you know, I just, in the house for what, a year?

Holly> But you really slowed down in several ways by moving from there to Savannah.

That's already a slow down, and then the world slows down.

Denny> I travel a lot though now.

(laughs) I'm getting out, I'm getting out.

It's not as quiet as it used to be.

Holly> But you wrote a lot, you said, during that.

Denny> No, I did.

I did.

And I was fortunate enough to have contracts so that I had books that deadlines due.

There was a certain amount of, and, and authors do talk about this, there, there was a certain amount of psyche that made writing harder during the pandemic.

Holly> I was about to go there.

>> Isolation.

That's usually the story I hear, is that people hit this writer's block.

They're excited, oh, I'm stuck in here.

I have all this time to write.

>> Yeah.

And then they can't.

>> You can't.

So it's like, where, where's the, where's the energy?

Where's the inspiration coming from?

I'm staring at my computer screen and the news or the information coming to me is not of joy and, and joy.

>> Sure.

And not that all stories are about joy, but your framework, your state of mind when you're sitting down writing or creating or trying to create, everything felt stifled, choked.

Holly> How did you get past that?

>> I did get past it by discovering a form of music that I fell in love with, that I hadn't been exposed to before.

I will admit that I became a fan of a group called BTS.

>> Okay.

And they had a lot of content online, and they're a k-pop group.

>> Uh-huh.

I hate calling them a k-pop group, 'cause I think of them as musicians, frankly, and fabulous singers and performers.

And I just got into, they used to do concerts online that were completely no audience.

They were pandemic conferences because nobody could do anything.

But they would do a conference online to an empty house.

And then, and their performance value, or what they put into everything they did was just very high.

So I just listened to music and that really reminded me how much I love music.

It was getting into that new form of music that I hadn't been familiar with.

So now, I am, just all forms of music, I love.

There's a quote and I, and I don't even know who said it, if you ever wanna time travel, listen to music.

>> Yeah.

And nothing could be more true.

So that's -- Holly> I love how, how all these different phases of your life that are so different, they somehow all kind of connect and come back.

>> Yeah.

And how that music helped you write.

Denny> Oh, absolutely.

I write with music playing.

Holly> Somebody the other day told me that they had to have their dogs snoring to write.

(laughter) It's, it's fascinating.

>> Yeah.

All the different ways that people get, get there, you know?

>> Oh, absolutely.

Absolutely.

And, and we all have, you know, because I, I definitely go on writer's retreats with other author friends, and we're on the phone a lot with other author friends and group chats and what have you.

And we all have our little things that we have to have, you know, coffee is real, you know?

>> Oh, yeah.

It's, it's like, you know, life's blood and, and then, you know, just sharing ideas about, oh, I think I'm gonna work on this.

Or, what do you think of this?

That conversation.

Holly> You feed off that energy from each other.

Denny> Oh, you do.

Yeah.

You really do.

Absolutely.

Holly> I am interested about the Rhinelander family and whether you have connected with that family at all.

Do you anticipate any kind of feedback or, oh, what do you think might happen?

>> Oh, I think that whoever's left since 1925 -- Holly> Right.

Denny> -- and I'm sure there are plenty, this story has already been told to, in their way to them, in whatever way they wanted to digest it.

>> Right.

So I imagine that another book about this, this particular scandal is not gonna really phase them.

>>Okay.

One thing about writing autobiographic, not autobiographical, but biographical, historical fiction, or just taking a story that's true, and being inspired to write fiction based on that story, you, you don't need to contact the family.

You don't need to contact unless you are defaming and, and someone which you're not really doing.

You're telling what was in the newspaper and just putting your spin on it as a -- >> Right.

Denny> -- as a fiction writer.

So, no, I, I, I wouldn't go talk to anyone.

Holly> With you having that journalist background, I'm interested to know, what did you find whenever you went through those old newspaper articles in terms of any biasness or from the writer of those articles?

Did you sense anything like that?

>> Oh, absolutely, because back in that time period, in the 1920s, sensationalized yellow journalism was definitely a part of what newspapers were all about.

I mean, that was a form of entertainment.

Your newspapers, your radio, radio being the, the baby of the group.

But newspapers were the, you know, TMX, TMZ, excuse me.

>> Right.

Excuse me.

They were that resource of, of, oh, what's happening in the world?

And the writers, the reporters fed off of that.

They knew why they were there.

They knew how these headlines were just sensationalized.

I mean, even then they recognized that they were going overboard, but that was what the public wanted.

Holly> That was selling the papers.

Denny> Yeah.

And, and different newspapers.

I also, another fabulous resource for authors of, of, of stories predominantly presenting Black characters, which is my POV.

Characters are going to be African-American, or Black, you know, European, West African, what have you, is that there is a wealth of Black historical newspapers that just have just so much that you can really call from them.

Chicago Defender, Baltimore Afro-American, Philadelphia, I think it's the..

I mean, New Amsterdam News, which was a, is a New York paper out of Harlem where I got a lot of information.

That, along with the archives of the New York Times.

So newspapers are, are just a fabulous thing when you work in- >> I agree, and that's what makes me nervous whenever I hear about some of them shutting, you know, shutting down now.

I hope that those who follow us will have access to those kinds of archives.

It makes me nervous.

Denny> Oh, they are there.

They are there.

I also happen to be an adjunct professor at Drexel University.

Holly> Just one more other thing you do.

Denny> Just another job.

(laughter) But notice how everything is, is writing.

Holly> What else do you do?

Sing?

You're probably a professional chef.

What else?

Denny> No, I cannot cook.

Holly> Not that.

Okay.

Holly> That's one thing you can't do.

(laughs) Denny> But I, I want to take singing lessons because I would love to sing at a jazz club once.

>> Yeah.

I don't know why.

>> In your spare time.

In my spare time.

Why not?

I think it's, it's an aspiration, you know, just put it on the list.

>> Yeah.

And see if it happens.

Holly> Oh, I have a feeling just from this time talking to you, I have a feeling you're gonna get it done.

Denny> I'm gonna get it done.

La-da-da-da-da.

Holly> Well, listen, it's been so fun talking to you.

I've loved that every minute I learn something that's like, huh, what?

And I've learned all this trivia.

This is great.

Thank you.

>> Thank you.

And thank you everybody for joining us here on By The River.

I hope you've enjoyed this as much as I have.

We hope that you'll join us next time, right here by the river.

♪ ♪ ♪ Narrator> Major funding for By The River is provided by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina.

For more than forty years, the ETV Endowment of South Carolina has been a partner of South Carolina ETV and South Carolina Public Radio.

♪ ♪