[upbeat music] ♪ ♪ - Hello, and welcome to "Comic Culture."

I'm Terence Dollard, a professor in the Department of Mass Communication at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke.

My guest is Chris Claremont.

He's returning again to "Comic Culture."

Chris, how are you?

- I'm fine, how are you?

- I'm doing great.

When we last spoke, we talked a lot about the "X-Men."

I wanted to talk a little bit about the "X-Men" that you're doing in the present day.

I know recently you worked on a series with Bill Sienkiewicz on "The New Mutants."

You're working on a series with "Gambit" and you're working on, is it the "X-Treme X-Men?"

- Yes.

- So, what's it like going back to those characters and sort of getting the feel right and having the story be great for contemporary audiences?

- Well, in a way I'm cheating because in publishing terms I am still preferred to be back in my era.

The "Gambit" series, for example, is set between two panels in the issue of "X-Men" where Jim Lee takes over as artist.

We mentioned that Gambit and Rogue are running around the Mississippi Valley looting and pillaging, in polite terms, for as long as it takes her hair to grow from a buzz cut to her usual waist length.

But then how long does it take hair to grow two feet?

So, that could be anywhere from a week to a year, which from my perspective provides a lot of opportunity for adventures.

"The New Mutants" that Bill and I did is essentially the next issue in our run.

It just took us 16, no actually it took us 30 years to get around to it.

The Salva five part "X-Treme X-Men" would've been the next arc in the original run.

So I'm actually, for better or worse, kept pretty much at arm's length from the current continuity which I suspect is fine for them and it's certainly fine with me because I don't feel constrained by what exists now.

I mean, I would love to play in the continuity, but the directions I keep pitching don't seem to be stories or arcs that the management is interested in.

- Those of us who grew up reading the comics of the 70s, 80s, and early 90s, we have a certain set of tastes.

And I know that modern comic readers have a different set of tastes.

And for me, you know, I really, if I go to a comic show or something like that, I know that you were at HeroesCon this year.

I didn't get a chance to go to your table and get an autograph, but I go to the long boxes and I look at, you know, if I can find an issue of "Action Comics" with Kurt Swan Art, that's gonna make my day.

So, when you're dealing with modern audiences and presenting something in that old school flavor, are you getting like a feel of their appreciation?

- Well, I find, I'm not sure I have an adequate definition of what old school flavor is versus current flavor.

I mean, again, it's challenging because I learned my trade, my craft, at a time when comics were substantially newsstand, not direct sale.

Stand's attitude was every issue, and from stand's perspective has to be a single issue, maybe a two-part story.

Occasionally, if it's "The Galactus Trilogy," a three parter.

But you have to be aware of the fact that we cannot guarantee distribution to every news agent in the country every month.

So, you might always find a situation where you buy the first issue and readers are desperate to see the second, the next issue, because it ends on a cliffhanger, but it doesn't show up.

And by the time, 10 years later, they find it in a Comic-Con, the back issue price is ridiculous.

So, that's pretty much been the defining element, storytelling element of my run.

You can do long story arcs.

I mean, "Phoenix" was a ten-issue arc, but it was told in two-part stories, one-part, two-part stories so you could jump in any time.

And the other aspect was each story has to assume it's a new reader who knows nothing about what you're doing.

So, we had to find creative and interesting ways of introducing characters who've been around for a while.

That's why Frank Miller and I, when we did "Team-Up 100" which introduced Karma, the first four pages are Frank and me for the fun of it saying, okay, for those of you who've never read "Spider-Man" before and have no idea who he is or what he does, we're gonna take you through that iteration.

Well, how are we gonna do it?

Because the person who possesses him and takes control of him in the very first scene, Karma, has never heard of him.

She has no idea what she's grabbing hold of other than the fact that he's a notorious super being, who depending on which newspaper you read, can be an occasional hero.

Or if it's the "Daily Bugle," the worst super villain ever.

And then in the process of trying to possess him and retain control, she, and through her, the audience, learns what he can do.

Oh my gosh, he sticks to walls.

Oh my gosh, he fires webbing.

Oh my gosh, he's incredibly agile.

This is so cool.

Is her reaction, scary, but cool.

It's not that hard if you think about it, but the difference now is since everyone is essentially writing five-part stories which are then condensed in or combined into graphic novels or trade paperbacks, maybe they'll establish it in issue one, but they leave it alone in issue two, three, four and five.

Because hey, if you're not buying the first issue, you're not gonna buy any of it.

Or if you come in late, it doesn't matter because it's all gonna be compiled anyway, end of story.

I think that's one of the deliberate choices that was made when I started structuring out "Gambit" is that it is not a five-part story.

It's three separate arcs put together.

The first story is a one-parter and then the second and third or two-parters.

And they contain the same set of characters, or basE characters, But we evolve.

They go on adventures together, but there's two separate and distinct adventures.

And to me it was more fun.

you're not coming in the middle of a grand epic.

You're just catching bits and pieces along the line.

And that way, if you like it, you'll come back for more.

If you don't like it, well, we tried, but you're not coming in in the middle of something and liking it, but having no way to find out what got you there, only where you're going from here.

And to me, I think that's not a comfortable way to tell stories.

- It's fascinating because you're talking about this "Gambit" series being between two panels in a an issue of "X-Men" that came out a ways back.

- Yes.

- But even in the telling of three arcs, in this five-issue series, you're giving yourself spaces to, if you wanted to, go back and tell stories, because if, again if it's however long it took Aurora to grow her hair back, you still have time.

So, this is something that you as a writer have been doing for decades.

So, I'm wondering how much of this is a conscious choice and how much of this is just the story comes to you and that's what you wanna write?

- Six of one, half dozen of the other.

You always leave room.

I mean, how can you not leave one self room?

What is it, there's a play coming either in London or in New York based on the premise what if Juliet had survived?

What if the poison didn't work?

What if she couldn't shoot herself or stab herself?

What if she missed her heart and got better?

Okay, what happens next?

I don't know, but it might be interesting to see.

It's everything in fiction is a what if.

And for me as a reader, and definitely as a writer, I find the adventures of Ro, an 11-year-old who has hints of her power, but it hasn't manifest yet.

But she is a really good thief, a heck of a lot of fun, and in many ways more interesting than the Aurora who is now been running around the Marvel universe for 50 years and not the most interesting character anymore.

Sorry.

Well, because it's, to me as a reader, nobody seems to be having any fun.

And it's okay, that is an editorial and a writing decision.

It's not my writing decision.

So, and they're certainly not my characters.

So, it's not my judgment in terms of this isn't the kind of stuff I wanna write.

But, it may not be the stuff I wanna read unless it's exceptional.

And for me, I like variety.

I like the fact that Steve Gerber's "Hulk" is different from Len Wein's "Hulk."

Doesn't mean either of them is wrong, it means that they're different tastes.

But that's easy to say unless it hits directly at home which is why I can say that about "Hulk," but my attitude towards the original "X-Factor" was something completely different because that to me was being run over by a bus.

And we redefine reality as it suits us, whether we like it or not, mostly when we don't like it.

But there you go.

- You talk about the grim and gritty approach which sort of took hold in comics when I guess Frank Miller was bringing in "The Dark Knight Returns" and the "Watchmen."

And you know, you worked on a "Wolverine" series with Frank, but then you did another ongoing "Wolverine" series that was just completely the antithesis of this dark and grim.

- Yeah.

- And it was more of a, maybe a "Terry and the Pirates" or Steve Canyon kind of adventure taking place where Wolverine doesn't wear his costume, he wears an eye patch.

So, what was that all about?

- I didn't wanna do grim and gritty "Wolverine."

Everybody was doing grim and gritty "Wolverine."

It's like, okay, that's nice.

Who cares?

You know, I wanted, for better or worse, I wanted him to have fun.

I wanted to demonstrate to the readers that there was more to him than meets the eye, that he is fluent in different languages and in different cultures, and can kick ass in ways that do not involve him slashing everybody to pieces.

Because everyone forgets what for me has always been the seminal reality of his life which that every time he manifests his claws, he is slicing his hand wide open.

I mean, this is why in X one, when Anna Paquin looks at Hugh Grant and says, "Does it hurt?"

And he looks at her and he looks at his hand and he looks out the window and he looks at her and he looks back out the window and says, "Every time."

And when he said that, and mind you, this is at the world premiere where the entire cast is sitting in the audience.

I mean, and the next thing I know I'm on my feet and I'm going, "Yes!"

My wife is yanking and said, "Will you sit the down?"

Because that's the essence of him right there.

The use of his deadliest weapon is slashing himself open three times on each hand with a knife and it hurts.

And if you aren't aware of that when you're writing the character, you are missing an essential element of who he is.

So many people end up taking this aspect of him for granted.

He's just a picture.

We can do anything.

He gets shot 500 times.

Whoopee!

You know, who cares?

Well, I guess my aspect always was I care because if it was me, I'd be really, really pissed.

And for me, using the claws is a last resort because when the claws come out, someone's gonna die.

No way around that.

And again, that's why in an issue where in one of John Byrne's issues where they're sneaking into the Savage Land and there are guards and Wolverine says, "I'll deal with it."

And you never see what he does.

All you see is Nightcrawler and Aurora's reactions and that tells you everything you need to know.

It's like, ooh.

But then she gets on in his face and lays down the law.

"I run this team, you don't do that ever again."

And they face off and he backs down.

And that in turn sets up the fight between her and Callisto 50 issues later where everyone's expecting you know, it's a knife fight.

It's a knife fight to the death and everyone figures Aurora's dead meat because she won't kill.

And then much to Callisto's surprise, Aurora nails her, dead center.

And it's only through a quote unquote miracle the Morlock healer, that she survives.

And this is like, everyone's stepping back and going, "Oh, I never saw that coming."

Right.

They all have boundaries, but when they step across those boundaries, it is a big deal.

And ideally, it should catch the readers as much by surprise as the characters.

And once Aurora crosses that Rubicon, A, she wins Callisto's respect, and B, for Callisto it makes her a character worth cherishing and protecting from herself.

Because when Aurora tries to run away after the massacre, Callisto goes after her and says, "No, I'm not gonna let you do this."

And Aurora says, "Look, you can run the Morlocks again.

You can be the boss.

And Callisto says, "No, you took it from me in a fair fight.

I'm gonna take it back from you exactly the same way.

You don't get to run out, this is your responsibility and I'm gonna make sure you honor it to the bitter end.

Like it or not."

You define characters as who and what they are and you play as much as humanly possible by the rules.

Those rules.

With Logan going to Madripoor is indulging in a side of himself that only Nightcrawler has ever seen, on camera at least.

And it doesn't mean he's not badass.

The first issue demonstrates that in every sense.

But, he's a lot sneakier than that.

You know, it's Humphrey Bogart if Humphrey Bogart were an action hero.

So let's have, you know, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

I mean, I did a series for Jim Lee at "WildStorm" where he wanted to reboot "Gen13."

And because it was 2002, I based it around 9/11, and the the characters all lived in Brooklyn.

They were high school kids.

All of them had been affected by the Trade Center.

One was Arab, two of them, their father was a fire captain.

And I wanted to go into what the city was like at that time and what it was like to be a kid in the city at that time.

And I thought it was a great idea, but none of the "Gen13" readership did.

They wanted what they'd been reading for years.

So the book, [clapping] it went down.

You follow your instinct to create characters that you hope are really good and you put them in situations which exemplify that.

And then fingers crossed, you have a success.

Sadly, crossed fingers don't always work.

- It's interesting, you know, because as a young writer you're given a book that might not have a chance of success.

You're given maybe a title like "Iron Fist" or maybe the later run of "Miss Marvel" and then you're given the "X-Men," which at the time is not a big seller, they're just having been rebooted, but you turn it into something.

So, is there a certain freedom that you have as a writer when nobody's really paying attention to what you're doing?

And if you succeed, it's great, and if you fail, it's okay?

- Absolutely.

None of us thought the "X-Men" would last a year, but at that time none of us thought Marvel would last.

We figured we'd be done by, I guess, '80?

The industry was dying.

We had no idea comic stores were waiting around the block.

But, for me, these were brand new characters.

Nobody had done anything with them other than create them.

Len's original conception for Wolverine was that he was a 20-year-old, 19-year-old kid whose power was to heal wounds.

The claws were not part of Wolverine.

The claws were his gloves.

The problem was, my problem was that, to me made him the same as Ironman, because anybody can wear Tony's armor and bingo, they're Ironman.

Rody wears the armor as whatever the character is.

So, one day Dave comes in with a sketch of a clenched fist with three claws popping out of the back of it.

And I took one look at it and I went, "Ugh, that's disgusting.

That is so cool."

And wham, we had our Wolverine.

And that transformed everything because suddenly he wasn't someone wearing a costume.

He was someone who was physically different and who could not really escape that.

It's not you can take off the, Spidey dumped his costume more times than you care to remember.

Logan can never get rid of the claws.

And even if he gets rid of the adamantium, there are bone claws underneath.

So, that's who he is.

Nightcrawler could never, we can't, he's stuck the way he is.

And interestingly, Len's conception of him was a bitter, tormented, angry soul.

My response was, "Everybody's done that.

They do that all the time.

What if he liked it?

What if he, as a religious young man, figured I look this way because God decided it.

Who am I to argue with the Almighty?"

Where do I go from here?

Well, I teleport, I crawl up walls.

I'm invisible in the dark.

This is really cool.

What would Errol Flynn do in a moment like this?"

Bingo, and that was Nightcrawler.

It's finding a way to look at these powers and these characters and then turn it sideways, you know?

Okay, Aurora's a goddess living on Mount Kilimanjaro.

You know, leaving aside the fact that even in 1970, Kenya looked a lot different than the way it appeared in the book.

And of course being English, I knew far more about Kenyan history in the Mau Mau than I acknowledged in the book.

So, where do we go from there?

Well, she's an immigrant coming back to the land of her birth, not her heritage land, but America.

How's that gonna feel getting off the boat and dealing with a world unlike any she's ever known?

Where do we go from there?

That's her life.

With Peter Rasputin, I come from a collective socialist republic who is the arch adversary of the United States.

What's it like coming over to this capitalist den of inequity?

Well, with all of them, they embarked on a learning curve.

We are immigrants, like it or not, whether we want it or not.

How do we cope with the new land we live in and the new life we are asked to lead?

One step leads after another and before you know it they're flying through space and saving not just the world, but the universe.

And oh my gosh, Jean has turned into the avatar of creation.

But holy cow, this is this the best adventure, avenger ever.

But the one thing we can never do is lose sight of who they are or should never do is lose sight of who they are as people.

Of what they do on the days off.

Of them playing baseball for crying out loud.

Of them, forgive me, going out on dates, of doing things that bond them to the real life that the readers live so that they can have experiences that we can all relate to.

Kitty and Illyana studying for midterms.

Of the new mutants going out to mixers in town.

The essence is never forget these are people, they're not superheroes, they're people who act as superheroes, but fundamentally they have to be dealt with, at least to me, as people.

The better that the audience can bond with them and want to see what happens next.

- Well, Chris, that's a great spot for us to end our conversation.

I'd like to thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule to talk with me today.

- My pleasure.

- I'd like to thank you at home for watching "Comic Culture."

We will see you again soon.

[upbeat music] ♪ - [Commentator] "Comic Culture" is a production of the Department of Mass Communication at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke.

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