>> NOW, WITH PASSOVER APPROACHING, JEWS ACROSS THE GLOBE PREPARE TO CELEBRATE, AND MANY CITIES ARE HEIGHTENING SECURITY AROUND SYNAGOGUES AMID THE WAR WITH IRAN.

SCENT SEMITISM HAS BEEN SURGING SINCE THE OCTOBER 7th ATTACKS, AND OUR NEXT GUEST IS PART OF THE TASK FORCE TACKLING IT AT COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY.

IN HIS NEW BOOK PROFESSOR NICHOLAS LEMANN DEVILS DEEP INTO HIS FAMILY HISTORY AS THE SON OF JEWS.

AND HE SPEAKS ABOUT HIS CONNECTION WITH HIS FAITH AND HIS RELATIONSHIP TO THE WIDER ISRAEL.

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA, AND NICHOLAS, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> YOU'VE WIN THIS VERY RICH MEMOIR AND MULTIGENERATIONAL HISTORY MUCH DIFFERENT FROM YOUR NONFICTION BOOKS OF THE PAST.

WHAT SET YOU ON THIS JOURNEY?

>> WELL, I STARTED TO GET INTERESTED IN MY FAMILY HISTORY.

AND THAT'S A THING THAT HAPPENS TO MOST PEOPLE LATER IN LIFE, IT DOESN'T HAPPEN TO ALL PEOPLE LATER IN LIFE.

BUT A CERTAIN SUBSET OF THOSE OVER A CERTAIN AGE KIND OF GET OBSESSED.

AND I THINK THE REASON FOR THAT IS FOR A LOT OF YOUR LIFE AND FOR SOME PEOPLE FOR THEIR WHOLE LIFE THEY THINK IT'S JUST ME ON STAGE, YOU KNOW, ENACTING MY LIFE, AND THAT'S WHAT REALLY MATTERS.

BUT SOMETIMES YOU START THINKING, WELL, I'M ACTUALLY A LINK ON A CHAIN, AND THERE'S PEOPLE WHO CAME BEFORE ME AND THERE'S PEOPLE WHO CAME AFTER ME, AND THAT'S WHAT'S MORE IMPORTANT THAN WHAT I DID AS AN INDIVIDUAL.

SO YOU WANT TO LEARN MORE ABOUT WHO YOU CAME FROM SO THE PEOPLE WHO COME AFTER YOU CAN KNOW MORE.

AND THEN THE OTHER PART OF IT, WALTER, IS THAT THERE WAS A --IT'S LIKE THE PROVERBIAL ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.

I'M FROM NEW ORLEANS LIKE YOU, SO YOU KNOW THAT I HAVE A LOT OF COUSINS.

AND ONE OF MY COUSINS MANY YEARS AGO GATHERED UP A LOT OF FAMILY PAPERS AND PUT THEM AT TULAIN UNIVERSITY WHERE YOU TEACH.

IT'S OVER 100 LINEAR FEET OF MATERIAL.

I KIND OF KNEW IT WAS THERE MY WHOLE LIFE.

AND I THOUGHT, WELL, THE ONE THING I'M NOT GOING TO DO IS LOOK IN THIS MATERIAL.

THEN I DECIDED THAT'S A LITTLE PERVERSE, SO I'M GOING TO LOOK IN THE MATERIAL.

YOU KNOW, THE REST IS HISTORY, AS THEY SAY.

>> YOU KNOW, WE BIOGRAPHERS LIKE TO THINK THAT CLUE NUMBER ONE TO ANYBODY IS IT'S ALL ABOUT DAD.

AND, BOY, IS THAT THE CASE IN THIS BOOK.

TELL ME ABOUT YOUR FATHER, THOMAS LEMANN, AND HIS FEELINGS ABOUT BEING JEWISH AND BEING A SOUTHERNER.

>> WELL, HE WAS -- YOU KNEW HIM, SO WE SHOULD NOTE THAT.

AND HE WAS A REMARKABLE CHARACTER, A BRILLIANT AND ECCENTRIC GUY, A LAWYER IN NEW ORLEANS.

ON THE JEWISH FRONT HE WAS I GUESS WHAT WE'D CALL VERY, VERY ASSIMILATED.

WE BELONGED TO A REFORMED TEMPLE, AND HE WOULD TAKE US THERE ONCE A YEAR, AND THAT DAY WAS THANKSGIVING.

SO HE WAS INTO SORT OF LEAVING WHATEVER RESTRICTIONS AND CONFINES THERE WERE TO BEING JEWISH PARTICULARLY IN NEW ORLEANS AND, YOU KNOW, BECOMING A FAUX MEMBER OF THE WIDER WORLD, NOT BEING REAL ETHNIC.

BUT, ON THE OTHER HAND, HE WAS VERY SOUTHERN AND PROUD TO BE A SOUTHERNER.

HE LIVED IN --I MEAN, IT'S REALLY REMARKABLE.

HE DIED AT THE AGE OF 97 IN THE SAME HOSPITAL WHERE HE WAS BORN.

THAT HOSPITAL IS WHERE HIS MOTHER WORKED AS A NURSE, AND THERE WAS A PLAQUE OUTSIDE HIS ROOM MEMORIALIZING HER SERVICE, AND IT'S THE SAME HOSPITAL WHERE I WAS BORN.

SO IT'S A VERY, YOU KNOW, TRADITIONAL, NON-MOBILE, IF YOU WILL, AMERICAN WORLD, AND WE FELT LIKE WE WERE DEEPLY, DEEPLY ROOTED IN THE SOUTH.

NOW, ONE OF THE SURPRISES OF MY RESEARCH WAS - -I HAD NO IDEA OF THIS --I FOUND THAT MY FAMILY ACTUALLY HAD MOVED TO NEW YORK BEFORE THE CIVIL WAR AND LEFT THE SOUTH, SO I HAD TO SORT OF PROCESS THAT.

IF WE WERE SO SOUTHERN WHY DID WE LEAVE WAY BACK THEN?

AND IF WE WERE SO UN-SOUTHERN, WHY DID WE MOVE BACK?

>> THERE'S A STORY IN YOUR BOOK THAT, YOU KNOW, STRUCK ME, WHICH INVOLVED AN INVITATION YOU GOT TO A JUNIOR MARDI GRAS BALL AND YOUR FATHER'S REACTION.

TELL ME THAT AND TELL ME HOW THAT INFORMED THE BOOK.

>> OKAY.

WELL, FIRST OF ALL, GIVEN THAT NOT ALL OF THE VIEWERS WILL BE FROM NEW ORLEANS, YOU HAVE TO DO A LITTLE EXPLAINING.

LIKE, YOU KNOW, PULITZER PRIZES, NOBEL PRIZES, HAVING YOUR COMPANY DO AN IPO, THE EQUIVALENT OF THAT IN NEW ORLEANS WE GREW UP IN IS THESE SOCIAL MARDI GRAS ASSOCIATIONS.

THEY'RE THE PINNACLE OF EVERYTHING AND THEY MATTER TO PEOPLE, SO THAT'S THE CONTEXT.

AND, YOU KNOW, I GOT AN INVITATION TO A SORT OF JUNIOR MARDI GRAS BALL THAT I DIDN'T RESPOND TO.

I WAS, LIKE, 13, AND MY FATHER CAME TO MY ROOM VERY SERIOUSLY AND SAID, YOU KNOW, DID YOU GET THIS INVITATION.

AND HE SAID, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE THE FIRST JEWISH KID EVER TO BE INVITED TO THIS BALL, AND YOU NEED TO ACCEPT BECAUSE IT'S A STEP FORWARD FOR OUR PEOPLE, AND WE'RE GOING TO STOP --THESE ORGANIZATIONS TYPICALLY DIDN'T LET JEWS IN.

WE'RE GOING TO --OUR GENERATION'S GOING TO END THAT, AND WE'RE GOING TO BE FULLY ACCEPTED.

BUT YOU'RE ALLOWED TO INVITE A COUPLE OF GUESTS.

DON'T INVITE ANY JEWISH GUESTS BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO PUSH THIS TOO FAST.

SO THAT WAS WHEN I WAS KIND OF OFFICIALLY INTRODUCED TO THIS --ONE OF THE ENDLESS VARIATIONS OF THIS STRUGGLE ABOUT ASSIMILATING, WHAT YOU GIVE UP, WHAT YOU GAIN, WHAT YOU MIGHT GAIN, ET CETERA.

AND IT SORT OF WENT ON FROM THERE.

>> THIS BOOK IS BASICALLY ABOUT THE ASSIMILATIONIST INSTINCT.

THAT TOOK YOU ALL THE WAY BACK TO GERMANY FOUR OR FIVE GENERATIONS AGO.

HOW DOES THAT ASSIMILATIONIST INSTINCT FOR JEWS, AND FOR THAT MATTER PROBABLY ANY OTHER GROUP FEELS AN ASSIMILATIONIST INSTINCT.

HOW DID THAT GET INVOLVED?

>> IN A FUNNY WAY THE STORY OF ASSIMILATED JEWS REALLY BEGINS WITH ONE PERSON, WHICH A MAN NAMED MOSES MENDELSON, WHO RODE INTO THE GATES OF BERLIN ON A DONKEY IN 1743.

AND HE WAS REALLY THE --I MEAN, JEWS DID NOT LIVE OUTSIDE OF THE EXCLUSIVELY JEWISH WORLD INCLUDING MY FAMILY.

IN MEASLIEST DAYS MY FAMILY, WE DIDN'T HAVE LAST NAMES, WHICH WAS TYPICAL OF JEWS.

SO THERE'S THIS WHOLE STORY IN GERMANY BEFORE WE EVEN GET TO AMERICA OF JEWS TRYING TO JOIN THE MODERN WORLD.

AND, YOU KNOW, THERE'S TWO SIDES TO THE STORY.

ONE IS WOULD THE REST OF THE WORLD LET US JOIN?

AND THE OTHER IS WHAT WOULD WE LOSE IF WE DID JOIN?

SO THERE'S THESE STRUGGLES THAT JUST GO ON FOREVER.

AND AS YOU SAY, THEY GO ON FOR ALL ETHNIC GROUPS, YOU KNOW?

GO WATCH "THE GODFATHER" FOR THE 50th TIME.

IT'S AN AMERICAN STORY.

>> WHAT ARE THE LESSONS ABOUT DESIRING TO ASSIMILATE?

THAT SEEMS SOMETIMES LEADS TO GREAT TRAGEDIES ESPECIALLY IN GERMANY IN THE 1930s.

WHAT DO THEY LESSONS ABOUT THE DESIRE TO ASSIMILATE HAVE FOR TODAY WHEN THERE'S BEEN A RISE OF ANTI-SEMITISM BOTH IN EUROPE AND IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> SO, THERE WAS THIS LONG RUNNING PROCESS IN GERMANY CALLED JEWISH EMANCIPATION, WHICH WAS NOT COMPLETED UNTIL 1871.

THAT WAS WHEN JEWS BECAME COMPLETELY, YOU KNOW, FULL CITIZENS WITH FULL RIGHTS OF THE GERMAN NATION.

AND THEN BY TEN YEARS LATER THERE WAS A VERY ACTIVE ANTI-SEMITIC MOVEMENT IN GERMANY THAT SORT OF BUILT AND BUILT UNTIL YOU GOT THE NAZIS.

SO IN AMERICA TODAY, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE HALF ROUGHLY OF THE JEWS IN THE WORLD --THERE AREN'T THAT MANY -- LIVING IN ISRAEL.

AND YOU HAVE A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF ANTI-ISRAEL SENTIMENT BOTH ON THE LEFT AND THE RIGHT.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, MOST AMERICAN JEWS WERE RAISED TO THINK THAT ISRAEL IS OUR HOMELAND AND EVEN IF WE DON'T LIVE THERE IT'S PART OF OUR IDENTITY.

BUT ESPECIALLY IF YOU'RE YOUNGER, YOU REALLY GET CHALLENGED ON THAT AND KIND OF ASKED ARE YOU A ZIONIST.

AND SO PEOPLE LIKE MY KIDS REALLY STRUGGLE WITH THAT.

IT'S ALMOST EVERY FAMILY I KNOW HAS SOME KIND OF INTERNAL DISSENSION OVER THAT.

IT'S A TOUGH TIME NOT JUST BECAUSE OF THE ANTI-SEMITISM ALTHOUGH THERE'S THAT, BUT THE INTERNAL, YOU KNOW, QUESTIONING OF HOW TO DO CITIZENSHIP IN THE U. S. AND OTHER COUNTRIES.

IS ASSIMILATION A GOOD IDEA?

ARE YOU ACCEPTED IN THE WIDER WORLD?

THOSE ARE ALL REALLY TOUGH QUESTIONS THAT A LOT OF US ARE DEALING WITH RIGHT NOW.

>> AFTER THE OCTOBER 7, 2023, HAMAS ATTACKS IN ISRAEL YOU WERE ASKED TO SERVE AS THE COCHAIR.

YOU'RE SITTING THERE AT COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY NOW -- OF THE ANTI-SEMITISM TASK FORCE THERE.

WHAT IN YOUR RESEARCH AND IN YOUR BOOK HELPED INFORM YOU FOR THAT WORK ON ANTI- SEMITISM?

>> WELL, I GUESS, FIRST OF ALL WORKING ON THE BOOK VERY MUCH LED ME TO ACCEPT THIS ASSIGNMENT AND INFORM THE WAY THAT I UNDERSTOOD THE ASSIGNMENT, NOT JUST IN TERMS OF ASKING WHAT PREVIOUS MEMBERS IN THE FAMILY WOULD HAVE DONE IN THIS SITUATION BUT ALSO UNDERSTANDING HOW RICH AND COMPLICATED AND CONTENTIOUS THE HISTORY OF ZIONISM IS IN THE JEWISH COMMUNITY ON ALL ASPECTS.

AND THAT HELPED ME SORT OF UNDERSTAND THE CONFLICT WE WERE HAVING ON THE CAMPUS MUCH BETTER.

SO, YOU KNOW, ALL OF THAT HELPED.

AND THEN AS I WAS REVISING THE BOOK, IT PROBABLY WAS IN MY MIND THAT WATCHING ISSUES PERTAINING TO BEING JEWISH GO FROM A POT THAT SIMMERS TO A POT THAT WAS ON FULL BOIL AND WHAT IT FELT LIKE TO BE IN THE MIDDLE OF THAT.

IT MADE IT FEEL AS IF THE --YOU KNOW, GOING BACK TO WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT ABOUT ASSIMILATION.

THAT THE PROCESS OF BEING A JEWISH AMERICAN ISN'T A SETTLED MATTER AND ISN'T JUST SIMPLE AND ALL THE OLD CONFLICTS AROUND THIS AREN'T PART OF THE PAST, THEY'RE PART OF THE PRESENT, TOO.

AND AT LEAST I HAVE TO WRESTLE WITH THEM A LOT.

AND THERE'S CONVERSATIONS --THERE'S A CONVERSATION AT COLUMBIA.

THERE'S A PRETTY HOT-BLOODED CONVERSATION IN THE RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY I BELONG TO, KIND OF INTERNAL TO JEWS ABOUT HOW WE'RE SUPPOSED TO FEEL ABOUT ISRAEL, ABOUT ZIONISM, ABOUT PEOPLE, ABOUT ALL THOSE THINGS.

SO THERE'S JUST A LOT ON THE TABLE RIGHT NOW.

YOU KNOW, THE WORLD SEEMS SO DIFFERENT FROM THE WAY IT SEEMED ON OCTOBER 6, 2023, WHEN ISRAEL WAS SUPPOSEDLY ABOUT TO SIGN AN AGREEMENT WITH SAUDI ARABIA AND IT SIGNED THESE OTHER AGREEMENTS.

THE EGYPT AGREEMENT HAD HELD, AND YOU SORT OF THOUGHT, OKAY, ISRAEL'S ACCEPTED.

NO, IT CLEARLY HAS NOT.

>> PRESIDENT TRUMP RECENTLY SUED HARVARD AND RENEWED HIS ATTACK ON HARVARD SAYING THAT IT HAD BEEN SO MUCH ANTI-SEMITISM ON CAMPUS.

YOU DEALT WITH IT AT COLUMBIA AS PART OF THE ANTI-SEMITISM TASK FORCE.

COLUMBIA HAS TRIED TO NAVIGATE THAT.

BUT DO YOU THINK WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS DOING HAS SOME MERIT TO IT?

AND IS IT THE RIGHT WAY TO APPROACH IT?

>> WELL, SO FIRST OF ALL IT'S MADE LIFE MUCH MORE DIFFICULT FOR OUR TASK FORCE ONCE PRESIDENT TRUMP CAME BACK INTO OFFICE BECAUSE HE GAVE, YOU KNOW, ANY EFFORT TO COMBAT ANTI-SEMITISM ON CAMPUS A BAD NAME.

THE WAY I WOULD PUT IT IS THE WAY A LIBERAL UNIVERSITY LIKE COLUMBIA WORKS IS WE HONOR PEOPLE'S ETHNIC IDENTITIES.

AND IF SOMETHING HAPPENS THAT MAKES A SUBSTANTIAL NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN AN IDENTITY GROUP VERY UNCOMFORTABLE --AND WE DID POLLING THAT SUPPORTED THIS.

THE UNIVERSITY SAYS, YOU KNOW, OKAY, WE'RE HERE TO LISTEN TO YOU AND TRY TO ATTEND TO YOUR CONCERNS IN A WAY THAT'S CONSISTENT WITH OUR VALUES.

SO SOME OF MY RELATIVES WHO LIVED ON PAST MY DAD WEREN'T HAPPY IN MY DOING THIS AND THEY'D SAY IT'S ONLY ANTI-SEMITISM IF YOU GET UP IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CAMPUS AND SAY I HATE JEWS.

WELL, NOBODY DID THAT.

BUT THEY DID SAY, IN EFFECT, I HATE ISRAEL.

AND MOST AMERICAN JEWS IDENTIFY IN SOME WAY WITH ISRAEL, AND SO IT'S VERY, VERY IMPACTFUL ON JEWISH KIDS, ESPECIALLY MORE OBSERVANT JEWISH KIDS TO HAVE THIS, YOU KNOW, REALLY MASSIVE, VERY HARSH CRITIQUE OF ISRAEL AS THE WORST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD TAKING PLACE LOUD AND PROUD WITH HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE WEARING MASKS IN THE MIDDLE OF YOUR CAMPUS.

AND SO I THINK THAT'S A PROBLEM THAT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED, AND WE TRIED TO ADDRESS.

YOU KNOW, WHETHER THAT'S SOMETHING PRESIDENT TRUMP CARES ABOUT, I DON'T KNOW.

I MEAN, HE CLEARLY DOESN'T CARE ABOUT IT IF OTHER --IF IT'S A GROUP OF WOMEN SAYING THIS, IF IT'S A GROUP OF AFRICAN AMERICAN OR LATINO STUDENTS SAYING THIS.

SO, YOU KNOW, I'M --I'M SOMEWHAT SKEPTICAL THAT THIS RESIDES DEEP IN HIS HEART AS AN ISSUE.

>> HAS THIS WHOLE PROCESS SINCE OCTOBER 7th MADE IT HARDER TO BE VERY ANTI-ISRAEL WITHOUT BEING ACCUSED OF BEING ANTI-SEMITIC AND ANTI-JEWISH?

>> WELL, IT DEPENDS ON WHO'S DOING THE ACCUSING.

I THINK IN THE JEWISH WORLD THAT I'VE COME TO OR RETURNED TO AND THAT I LIVE IN, IT'S -- OUTSIDE OF THAT WORLD I THINK MOST --MANY OF MY FRIENDS HAVE --WHO ARE NOT JEWISH HAVE A VERY, VERY HARSHLY NEGATIVE VIEW OF ISRAEL, AND IT'S BECOME HARSHER IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

THEY DON'T SEE THAT AS ANTI-SEMITIC AT ALL, OR MOST OF THEM DON'T.

BUT MOST OF MY JEWISH FRIENDS THAT I BELONG TO A SYNAGOGUE WITH, IT -- IT SEEMS LIKE, YOU KNOW, WE --IN UNIVERSITIES WE USE THE TERM UNCONSCIOUS BIAS.

IT SEEMS LIKE AN EXAMPLE OF UNCONSCIOUS BIAS, OR AT LEAST IT MAKES THEM FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE BECAUSE IN THE JEWISH WORLD I LIVE IN NOW, WHICH IS PRETTY OBSERVANT, EVERYBODY HAS FAMILY IN ISRAEL.

EVERYBODY'S KIDS HAVE SPENT SIGNIFICANT TIME IN ISRAEL STUDYING.

THEY THEMSELVES ARE BACK AND FORTH TO ISRAEL ALL THE TIME.

SO TO SAY TO THEM YOU DON'T TRULY UNDERSTAND YOUR JEWISH IDENTITY, WHICH IS COMPLETELY UNCONNECTED TO ISRAEL, IT'S SORT OF LIKE WHAT WORLD ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT EXACTLY?

THAT DOESN'T FEEL LIKE YOU'RE DESCRIBING MY LIFE AND MY SOUL AND MY CONSCIOUSNESS.

>> AND THE OTHER BIG LESSON AT THE END OF YOUR BOOK IS THE COMFORT THAT COMES FROM RE-EMBRACING, RETURNING TO YOUR TRIBE.

>> YEAH.

SO I WANT TO SAY THAT, AGAIN, AS WE'VE COVERED A LOT OF TROUBLED AND AGONIZED AND PAINFUL CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THIS, AND IT'S A GOOD NOTE TO END ON.

I LOVE BEING JEWISH.

IT'S A SOURCE OF WONDERFUL ENRICHMENT AND JOY AND MEANING IN MY LIFE.

IT TAKES UP HOURS OF EVERY WEEK, AND IT'S A VERY, VERY POSITIVE THING.

SO WITHOUT ALL THESE FIGHTS WE'RE ALL HAVING ABOUT ISRAEL AND ZIONISM, I JUST WANT TO SAY THAT I'M HAVING A SATYR, IT'S A REAL HIGH POINT.

I DON'T WANT TO FEEL THAT THE DEBATES ABOUT OUR PLACES IN THE WORLD IN VARIOUS LOCATIONS VISHIATES THE PRESENCE BECAUSE IT DOES.

>> NICHOLAS LEMANN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

THANK YOU.