(anticipatory music) - Good evening and welcome to "A Conversation for the Common Good".

I'm WHRO Senior Producer Lisa Godley and I will be your moderator for this incredible discussion that we're about to have.

Now this conversation will cover public service and civility in politics.

It is a collaborative partnership between CNU's Wason Center for Civic Leadership and WHRO Public Media.

I cannot wait to have this conversation.

So joining me for this important discussion, Congresswoman Abigail Spanberger and Virginia Supreme Court Justice Bill Mims.

(audience applauds) Now let's get started.

This is a question for both of you of course.

Now with all of the discourse we see in local government, starting in local government and going all the way up to the national level, this is a question for both of you.

How do you govern when those making the decisions just can't seem to find common ground.

Abigail, I'm gonna start with you.

- Well, this is probably not the best way to start things but I'm gonna argue with the premise of your question.

You know, I think that sometimes when everything gets boiled down to a soundbite or a campaign bumper sticker, it feels like everybody disagrees about everything all the time.

But in fact, when we're looking at the issues where we're trying to govern.

Issues, that at times feel insurmountable, if you have people in a room who want to achieve some sort of goal moving forward and I'll just use infrastructure as an example.

We knew in prior Congresses, that we needed to make substantial investments in infrastructure, well what does that mean?

Well representing a district like the one I represent, that means roads, bridges, internet infrastructure 'cause I represent rural communities that are still without and so every conversation I was having, I was bringing to the table, these are some of the things that are important to people I represent.

Well what's important to you?

Well it might be water, it might be internet as well.

It mights be roads and bridges.

And sometimes when you can have conversations about something that is so straightforward, that's a great place to start.

About what does your community need?

Now not all legislation and not all legislative work relates to roads and bridges and things that are really digestible, really kind of clear investments.

So it is always about beginning with what is it that you want to achieve?

And sometimes people don't necessarily want to achieve a certain goal but there is always somebody potentially who might have a very different perspective who's at least willing to entertain the discussion of what might be possible.

- Bill?

- Yeah, there is indeed a great deal of discord right now.

But I think we have to put it in a context, about a 235-year context.

You go back to the founding of the Republic, and Thomas Jefferson once wrote to James Madison that they needed to pray fervently for Patrick Henry's death.

(Lisa laughs) So we've had discord for a long, long time and I agree with Abigail that there are ways to work through it and so I think the most important thing for us to remember is that as Americans, we have a lot in common and we need to find it sometimes.

We need to listen to each other more than we are presently doing as a society.

But I have confidence in our ability to do that.

- Now you both have extensive resumes in public service but I would like for you to share with our audience what brought you into public service, how did you get here?

- I'll begin.

So, and I say this as the oldest of three daughters and I know that Bill has three adult daughters.

My father was a career public servant.

He was a federal agent throughout his career and my mother was a career community servant.

She was a career nurse and so growing up, the option was serve your community, serve your country.

That's sort of what I grew up seeing and I had wanted to follow my father's footsteps in public service and so I began my career, first following directly in his footsteps as a federal agent and then as a CIA officer.

But I took a pivot towards politics because so much of what I had been doing as a CIA officer was trying to answer what felt like an impossible question.

Trying to get information that would allow lawmakers, the President or diplomats or military leadership to make informed decisions about issues that impacted our national security and that, there was no partisanship.

That is about making sure people make good decisions and so I had left CIA back in 2014, wanted to move home to Virginia, have a nice suburban life outside of the public sphere or outside of the public service but that didn't last long because I felt like some of the rhetoric on Capitol Hill was this is a problem, that's a problem and nobody was saying, "Well how do we actually try and fix it?"

Or, "How do we address it?"

And people were talking in these boiled down bullet points, without facts, without details, without data and I had gone out in very interesting and exciting at times, odd at times circumstances to collect information about the threats facing our country so that those same people, as I remembered it and as I believed were making good decisions with that information.

So I said, "Well I want to see people trying to solve problems "and I want to see people making data-informed, "information-informed decisions."

If it's not happening enough, maybe I'll go be one of those people and that's my progression from public service ultimately to running for elected office.

- Bill I'm gonna come to you, but you ran in a district that had been Republican forever.

- Since 1968 was the last time a Democrat was elected.

- How did you talk to folks that were so used to voting one particular way?

- Well I think this, a little bit gets to the conversation where you know, I'm a Democrat, I've always been a Democrat and that's maybe the CliffsNotes version for where I fall on a whole host of issues but I also think that a lot of my positions, even if people you know, are not going to agree with me, I think that they deserve, I would walk into rooms and say, "Well you may not want to vote for me "but don't you want to know "why you're not gonna vote for me?"

So let me tell you what I'm for and what I'm working towards or you may have been a lifelong Republican, that's fine.

I'm not asking you to become a Democrat, I'm just asking you to vote for a Democrat.

And what I have found is that there's a lot of respect that comes when you explain your position.

There's a respect, certainly as a candidate, I'm always grateful when someone who doesn't think they're gonna agree with me and maybe they don't ever, still gives me the time of listening to why it is I believe what I believe and why it is I'm working towards what I work towards but I also think that it's, if what I am working towards, the policies that I support I think are good and I think are the optimal path, then why wouldn't I make that case to anyone?

Regardless of the lens through which they may typically view politics.

And I was really fortunate to be welcomed into all sorts of spaces with all sorts of people and had really good, even if I didn't win debates, I've hopefully demonstrated respect and certainly had some good stories along the way.

- Okay, Bill what brought you to public service?

- Okay, before I answer that.

- Okay.

- I'm going, I actually, I want to talk about when we first met which was rather unusual.

Because it fits in with the second part of your answer.

We met in a train station at six o'clock in the morning.

You had just gotten the nomination and you were going to Washington.

And I know that, you got on the northbound train.

I got on a different car and I presume you were going up there because you know, to campaign.

I mean there are people in Washington who can help campaigns, I'm told.

- Sometimes.

- Yeah, I was going up to watch the Washington Nationals and was probably dressed in that manner.

But you had just finished the primary and I am, I'm not allowed to be a partisan any longer but I'm still a political junkie and it was the best primary to watch because first of all, nobody thought that the Democrat was gonna win.

There was a Republican incumbent, he had worked for the local state Senator and I think there were, ultimately it came down to you and Dan Ward.

- That's right.

- But it started off with five or six of you.

I remember there was a story about five women trying to get in David Brat's grill, quote unquote because he had had a quote along those lines and that was in the Times Dispatch and then the two of you wound up running against each other and it was just a lot of fun to watch and then you just won like three to one.

- That's correct.

- And yeah it was, yeah.

So this was like a week or two later and I walked up to you, I did not tell you my name or anything.

I just said, "Hey I used to work on Capitol Hill "and I've been watching this primary "and first of all, you did a good job, congratulations.

"But you really seemed to reach out to everyone."

In a manner that you just said.

It wasn't a matter of your, the just those who were in your lane.

And it was, ever since then I think it's something that a lot of people have noticed.

And you deserve the credit for that.

- Thank you.

- And I voted for you, don't tell any of the Republicans.

- You do know this is televised right?

- I know, oh darn it, oh well.

Secret's out.

So how did I get started?

I had done my undergraduate and graduate work at William & Mary and was fortunate enough to get a job with Paul Trible, some of you have probably heard of him and I worked for him for several years and then Frank Wolf, the Congressman from Northern Virginia for several years.

There was not a problem solver's caucus then but if there was, those two representatives would have been in it.

They consistently worked across the aisle and really wanted to accomplish things rather than to amass power or feed their egos.

So I then went out in Northern Virginia, in Loudoun County, and started practicing law and after three years I was fortunate that there was a redistricting and I was in a new district without an incumbent.

So I was not the favorite, I was underfunded but I had a whole lot of volunteers and I bought them a whole lot of pizza and we knocked on a whole lot of doors and I wound up being able to win.

So.

- Wonderful, thank you.

Before we take our first question from the audience, I would like for you, and I'm gonna start with you Bill to explain the difference between civic leadership and servant leadership.

- Oh man, I can't wait to do that.

So servant leadership is a, is leadership that is based upon influence, not command.

It is based upon teamwork and a term that I, terms that I really love to talk about.

Humility and empathy.

Robert Greenleaf created the term servant leadership back in the 1970s, and he pointed out that servant leaders are those who are servants first.

They desire to serve and then they move into leadership and it is outward facing.

It looks at how am I, what can I do that will benefit those with whom I am serving, with who I'm working?

But it also looks out at the larger picture.

How is society benefiting from the work that we're doing?

So everyone who is on Capitol Hill or everyone who's in Richmond in an elected capacity or here in the city of Newport News is involved in civic leadership but not everyone, everyone can be a servant leader but not everyone is focused on that.

So I'd love to see more and more people embrace that concept and move forward with it.

- Abigail, your thoughts?

Should all civic leaders be servant leaders?

- The world would be an incredible place if that were the case.

I think that the challenge becomes the you know, and back to your very first question.

Right, at a time when divisions feel very strong and at a time when it can be difficult to have differing opinions, it's more important I think now than ever, for people to be committed to those conversations.

To be committed to leadership within a community.

Be that through elected office or through civic organizations or through volunteerism because the more that we try to understand each other and try to have kind of common threads that do bring us together, I think the more we'll be able to attract those servant leaders into elected office.

Because it can be very difficult and it's not easy to be in politics these days and so, the more that we can bring the servant leaders and that style of leadership I think, to the forefront of our political system, the better it would be for all of us.

- Yeah.

- Thank you so much.

First question.

- I think I understand what servant leadership means for the both of you.

But how do you go about incorporating that in your daily lives and staying true to the definition?

- Do you wanna be?

- Yeah.

I mentioned humility and empathy.

Part of servant leadership is feeding those virtues and the key is humility.

One person said, one person wrote that humility is not thinking less of yourself, it's simply thinking of yourself less.

And when you focus on others, when you focus on their needs, their priorities, you will become more humble and as you become more humble, you become more empathetic.

Their needs become more of a priority to you.

And that's really the key to servant leadership, when you go back and look at what Robert Greenleaf was talking about and writing about in the 1970s.

The wonderful thing is this.

It's not only a formula for success as a leader.

It's a formula for happiness as a person and it's, I think, the way that we actually are wired and so that's really the everyday aspect of it.

One of the most important things, one of the most important ways to be a servant leader is to practice listening.

And Lisa, you might have a listening question coming up so I'll tease that one but not fully answer it.

- And I would just add that I think that trying to remember why it is, for those who are in elected office.

Why we're here in the first place can be a very grounding effort.

Trying to remember that none of the political process or the campaigns or the bumper stickers or the t-shirts, that isn't about the candidate right?

It might be my name on the bumper sticker, but what's the reason behind being in elected office?

Why did I want to do this in the first place?

And what, what are the benefits of it?

Well for me, the most extraordinary aspect of my job is that I get invited into people's spaces.

I get invited into community centers and houses of worship and people's homes.

And I hear people's hardest challenges and their deepest sorrows and I also get to see their most extraordinary successes.

By virtue of the job that I have and that is such a tremendous honor and such a tremendous responsibility that, of always having grounding stories of people I've met along the campaign.

It is, on days where you know, on Capitol Hill it's all politics and it's this vote and that vote and where are you on this?

And everything's just kind of the hustle and bustle of the inside D.C. world, I always kind of keep various different stories of individuals I've met along the campaign trail about, "Well this vote, how will this impact so and so?"

Or so and so, and they're the people I met once along the way and those are the connections.

So when I'm thinking about what it is that I'm doing in my job, my job is representing their interests.

My job is serving people like them.

My job is honoring the responsibility of all of those individuals.

The ones who chose to vote for me, and certainly the ones who did not.

And I, I think that the more that we think about the fact that you know, the title is just the job that we have.

But the job is something that is totally of and for somebody else, on the harder days, when things can get challenging and you're running all over the place and everything else, that's what kind of keeps me connected is the idea that you know, all of this is for somebody else or for people I met along the way.

- Thank you.

- All right.

These days, people just don't seem to be listening.

So how do we get beyond that?

Where do we start?

- Yeah, so listening is actually easy but very few people try it.

I shouldn't say very few people.

Many people in politics don't try it.

Narrow it to that.

Listening is not passive, it is active and once you start to realize that, it opens up so many vistas.

When I first heard that, I realized that I wasn't a very good listener because I will listen to what someone is saying, just long enough to get the gist of it and then I start to process, how am I gonna respond?

What do I wanna say?

And there were many, many times that I would cut somebody off, not trying to be impolite but just simply 'cause I was in a rush to get my thoughts in and I was taught listen until the person stops.

Now with some people, that means you just gotta wait til they catch their breath and then you go in but that's unusual.

Listen until they stop.

Take a second or two, and then ask them a question, or perhaps more than one so that you are sure you understand what it was they were saying.

Sometimes you want to know a clarification or whatever.

Then you can say, "Okay, now I'd like to express my view."

That has the advantage in you are communicating to them that what they are saying is important.

And you will be respected more for that.

But also it gives enough space so that you don't have a, a negative feedback loop.

If you are each interrupting the other, you will gradually speak faster, you will speak louder and it probably won't end up well.

So it's not hard but it does require practice.

- Abigail, you want to tackle that one?

- I thought Bill's answer was really interesting 'cause I, this isn't something I've thought about, I think, as much.

I'm a former intel officer, so my whole professional background was asking questions, just listening to answers and then trying to tease out additional information and either directly asking information or eliciting information to try and get a fulsome intel report and so I love hearing people's stories.

So I think that sometimes, if it's trying to listen to someone's opinion, it's not important just to know how someone feels about a particular issue but the why of why they feel a particular way or how their opinion was formed or you know, how long they've cared about a particular issue.

And this can be in any aspect of our lives, but particularly in politics.

Kind of understanding how it is, personal experiences, job experiences, how they get to a certain place.

Is incredibly important, both for understanding constituents, so that when they're asking me a question about my stance on something, I can ensure that I'm answering the question in a way that they understand my answer but then I've been able to answer any secondary questions but then also, when working with colleagues and trying to come together on policy issues, those why, why do they, they're telling me what they think but why do they think that?

Those aspects are incredibly important because sometimes what they think is non-negotiable or sometimes they want to get to X and they think the only way to get to X is this line.

Meanwhile I think, maybe we can go this way right?

And I liked Bill's kind of formula, if I can say that.

Of someone speaks and then you automatically ask another question to help really process of what it is that they're saying.

I think that's a good recommendation.

- Go ahead.

- So what I just heard.

(audience laughs) Is that Abigail is not only a practiced listener, she's a professional listener trained by the CIA.

You need to be aware of that next time you have a conversation with her.

- It's true.

- When you're having, if you're just a regular Joe Citizen and you're having a conversation with someone and they are just, they have decided, "This is how I'm thinking."

Help me to put those skills into play.

How do I, when I'm talking to someone and they're saying, "Uh-uh, this is how I feel about this.

"I'm done."

- I think that there's kind of many different, different tools that you can use to try and lower a little bit of, because the situation you're describing feels a little tense.

- Yeah, it is.

Could be.

- Well you can say, "Well I just want to better understand what you're saying."

Or, "So what I hear you saying is" blah blah blah.

I think there is, demonstrating that you're listening, 'cause sometimes, I think to Bill's point, sometimes when you're having a conversation people will just speak up and voices will raise because they're perceiving that you might not be hearing them.

So sometimes I think that confirming that you're hearing them but then asking followup questions that are related because you really do want to understand something is a good way to have that conversation, both kind of calm itself a little bit but also be really informative.

Because particularly, sometimes if people are defensive about an opinion, they'll come straight at you as though you automatically agree or you automatically disagree and sometimes understanding again, why they feel a particular way is valuable to the discussion, understanding how they got there, and then you know, determining if you agree or don't or somewhere in between.

- I'm gonna go with Abigail's answer here.

Primarily because she lives in an environment that I don't really fully grasp being in this year or this era.

On Capitol Hill, dealing with some of those issues.

There are some people who are, who are going to be aggressive.

They are not good listeners and there are, I'm sure, some conversations that just really aren't gonna end up in a positive fashion and consequently you just have to be polite and perhaps just you know, end the conversation as soon as you politely can.

See, I've had the advantage for the past 12 years of being a judge.

People don't usually argue in an aggressive fashion with me.

So I admire anyone, Republican, Democrat, who can serve on Capitol Hill now and maintain that level of balance.

- Low blood pressure.

- Sounds like a winner, go right ahead.

- So my question is you kind of touched on this a little bit about humility.

But how in a context of politics where it's very cutthroat, how do you show humility?

And is humility still, should it still be shown in politics?

Where being cutthroat and being the loudest in the room gets a lot of things done?

- Yeah, I have to laugh.

Delegate Clinton Miller served in Virginia for many years and he once said, "My momma taught me not to brag "but my momma never ran for office."

And so when you are running for office, you have to talk about yourself.

You have to talk about what you want to accomplish and what you have accomplished.

But at the same time, there is a way to do that with grace and with an understanding of the fact that you're not the most important person in the world.

You're probably not the most important person in the life of whoever it is you're talking with.

And I'm, I'm just trying to think of some really good examples.

The one that came to mind as I was just thinking about this, this particular program.

Was back in 1980, Ronald Reagan was running against Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan, they had a debate.

And Governor Reagan then became President Reagan, got a little bit heated and said something that was out of character for him.

And the following morning he called Jimmy Carter up and apologized.

That's somebody who is strong, a leader but is also humble enough to recognize that there is a way that we are to behave and that he had crossed a line.

And I will give this thought.

For the past seven or years so, those lines have been crossed way too often and we need to move back in the direction that I remember from prior days.

- And I think that sometimes, the desire to work together or the desire to find common ground or the desire to demonstrate more servant leadership can sometimes be viewed as mushy or like you have to be aggressive all the time if you really care about something.

Well my measure of success is do I get this legislation passed?

My measure of success, of whether or not I'm actually helping people or the cause that I care about or the priority that I want to legislate to or help people and as a legislator I do that through legislation is if I am successful.

So if everyone in the room is cheering for me and thinks I'm right and I can't get it done, then what's the point?

And there are headwinds upon headwinds in front of us on a whole variety of legislative issues and I have a laundry list of things that are still undone from the goals and the priorities that I have.

But being able to connect the dots of explaining you know, our community is facing challenges with mental health and substance use disorder and these are the things I've done to help other people and these are the voices I brought together because everybody else is, people are busy, people have kids, people have jobs, people have responsibilities and I have asked for the responsibility of shepherding some of these things forward.

So I think when you're talking to people, it's about being able to separate out making sure that people understand that what you're doing for the community, maybe they're directly impacted, maybe not.

But why it's connected to them or other people.

And I think that you know, I had the experience.

Sometimes when you're on TV a lot or lots of TV ads during the campaign cycle.

I sometimes have to remember that even though I view myself as a very normal person, sometimes I'm on people's TVs and that distorts how other people view me and sometimes that makes it, so the responsibility is on me to make sure that other people feel comfortable and other people feel like I'm approachable and someone they can engage with right?

And call that humility or call that just, trying to be welcoming or polite or whatnot.

But I had the occasion once where I was at one of my daughters' schools and I got to chitchatting with the man sitting next to me.

We were both there because we both have a child at that school and we're there for an after school event and this gentleman said to me, "People like me don't ever get to talk to people like you."

And I keep that thought with me because here we are, two parents, there for the exact same reason but he sees a very strong schism.

And because I have a title or 'cause I'm on TV, et cetera.

So I think that if you're trying to assert servant leadership or you're trying to remain humble.

And a good key to remaining humble is having three daughters.

Just side.

- Amen.

- Especially for the moms.

- Okay.

- But to remember that sometimes the responsibility is on us to make sure that I'm making other people feel comfortable and respected and part of a conversation based on how they might see me because of the title or the TV or et cetera, whatever else it may be.

- Thank you very much.

- Abigail, you have a reputation.

- Oh good.

- A good one.

Of being different in terms of working across the aisle.

We want to know your secret.

- Oh I mentioned low blood pressure.

I sometimes say it in jest and maybe it's not a good thing to say but I always will say, in my team, even a broken clock is right twice a day which then I check with, if I may, in a room full of students, the folks to make sure they know I'm referencing a, not a digital clock.

And so you know, there's gotta be some place that we can agree with somebody else on and I have had the occasion right, and it's a practice, it's an effort.

I work with one particular member of Congress fairly regularly and I'll name check him 'cause I've talked about him before.

Chip Roy from Texas, we have the same birthday, he went to UVA, UVA basketball was doing very well when we first came to Congress.

We were elected at the same time and so we became friendly over that and we actually sat on the House floor and said, "What could we possibly agree on?"

And he's saying, "What would I have in common with somebody like you?"

And I'm teasing him back.

"What would I have in common with somebody like you?"

And we found two things, literally only two things.

One, you know, and so we worked on those two things and then later we started working together on an effort to ban members of Congress from trading stocks.

So now we have three things that we agree on.

Stock trading, authorization of use of military force and we sponsored a bill together to put a debt clock in the appropriations committee room that went nowhere, no one liked that idea.

But those are the three things and so we still try.

We'll sometimes say, "Okay, what else?

"Anything else?

"Nope not today, all right."

Well we got the things, the things we work on and he holds opinions that I disagree with fervently on issues that I care about deeply and I'm sure, if he were speaking, he would say the exact same and so we say, "Okay, we can work together on banning members of Congress "from trading stocks.

"And we can work together on making sure "that Congress is actually taking on the responsibility "of authorizing war or not."

And not sort of punting it to a President through extenuated stretched out authorizations of use of military power.

So I think being willing to try and find a common ground, and frankly, also being willing to go to, I have one colleague who I work with a lot.

He's from a western state, very rural.

Not all of it but most of his district and I will say to him, "From your perspective as a person "from a totally different part of the country, "lots of different industries, "totally different political perspective.

"What do you not love about this idea?"

Right, whatever legislation I'm pursuing.

And he will, at times, has given me very honest feedback about, "Well you know, I'd tweak this or I'd do that."

Or, "I don't really, this is too vague."

It's helpful for me to understand that if I were to just better define something or if I were to make clear or put kind of better parameters around something or take this part out or add something in, that'll get his support right?

Does that substantially change what I'm doing legislatively?

No, but I just didn't think about it because it's not frame, it's not my district, it's not my perspective or my experience.

So I think that there's, frankly, plenty of times where we can actually, I have put forth legislation with substantial changes from input from a Republican colleague that didn't change what it was that I was doing.

I just didn't have their perspective and if I asked for it, and not everybody is focused on governing the same way.

Not everybody wants to be fully productive in that, but there are people who are willing to.

Plenty of people are willing to give their opinions, but if you're willing to take them, then there might be real progress to be had.

- There's a great term for what Abigail just described.

The intentional cultivation of unpredictable relationships.

That describes you and Chip Roy.

And you do have one other thing in common, go Hoos.

- Yeah.

- So one of my, I had a lot of fun two weeks ago in my Constitution class.

(Abigail laughs) - Sorry.

Those things are not normally said together.

- We can have fun in Constitution class.

I'm looking at Professor Raider and she's like, "No, no, we really can."

- I don't mean to dissuade anyone from Constitution class.

- Okay, so we were talking about Griswold versus Connecticut which was gonna lead us to Roe versus Wade which was gonna lead us to Dobbs versus Jackson and that's not usually something that one laughs a whole lot about.

- That's fair.

- But I had two students, two exceptional students.

One of whom was just as strongly pro privacy right as you can possibly be, the other one who is just as strongly pro textualism and originalism as you could possibly be.

And I asked the two of them, I said, "I'm not gonna force you to do this.

"I'm gonna ask you, over the weekend, "go have coffee together."

And they're both very, very polite.

I didn't think that there was gonna be a fistfight or anything.

I knew there was not gonna be a fistfight or anything.

But I said, "Go have coffee together.

"Talk about these cases and come back and tell the class "what you were able to agree upon in terms of principles.

"I'm not saying that one of you "is gonna convince the other one "to go completely over to the other side.

"Don't even try that.

"Just what do you agree upon?

"Or if you can't agree on anything, come back "and just tell us that you can't agree on anything."

And they came back and they said, "You know, there were some things "that we were able to agree upon.

"There was a base on which we can build."

And neither one of them will change their fundamental views but the conversation was a valuable conversation and we did it writ small.

It's in a class of you know, 32 students and we do have fun on some other issues and so, but it is possible.

I mean as you just indicated, it really can be done.

- Well and I think, if I can continue the answer a little bit, I'm part of a group called the Problem Solvers Caucus, we're half Democrats, half Republicans.

I think our current numbers are at 58 and we get together for breakfast, lunch.

We'll do happy hours and we will bring in outside speakers to talk about various different issues.

Some very focused on the policy of the day or related to our jobs.

Some less so.

And our goal is to be productive in the legislating and in governance space.

But part of how we do that is through really getting to know each other and it's interesting, because you know, there are colleagues there where I know how one of my friends in the Caucus, I know how he met his wife when they were singing in the Christmas church pageant and I would've never otherwise known that this man has a beautiful singing voice or you know, details of the things that are personal and important to him and his family.

And kind of the threads of, when you have a little bit of a better understanding of someone or why they might come to a particular opinion or position or idea, or belief system.

Understanding that, they may not agree with you, you may not agree with them.

But at least it's helpful in taking away that outer layer of we're just gonna clash because we disagree.

At least it's the next level of, "Well I understand why we disagree."

And sometimes that's intractable.

But quite frequently, it's actually quite interesting to learn why other people believe and think and stand by the different positions that they have.

Particularly when they're different from ours.

- I like the idea of making, or asking people to have coffee and to have a conversation.

- Yeah.

- Maybe we can do that worldwide maybe, possibly?

- That would be wonderful and the Starbucks folks would not mind it either.

- Oh absolutely.

Go right ahead.

- Hello, to kind of backtrack to servant leadership in this situation where you have to put yourself first, how would you go about that with the team and group surrounding you?

- Can I ask you to, with your question, just a little bit more, explain what you mean about where you might have to put yourself first?

- Where if there's like a personal situation or even a situation amongst the group where you have to be the person and be like, "Hey I gotta put myself first.

"I can't really focus on the group at the moment, "or a team."

- I'll give a very baseline response to this.

When I first got elected, I was elected in this district where people really didn't think I was necessarily gonna win.

I had made all of these promises, I'm gonna be everywhere, I'm gonna do all this work.

And it got to the point where by the spring, my husband and my kids were saying, "Maybe you should have a day off every once in awhile?"

Because I basically live by this mentality, I was elected to do this job.

And that means I need to be at this event and I need be this and there's this festival and there's this thing.

And I need to be out celebrating with people when they're having the festival of this and I need to be at this roundtable, listening to people who have concerns about that.

And so, in the kind of discussion related to what's, you know, how do you balance these things or how do you sometimes recognize that sometimes, I guess, the answer to your question is, you have to be kind of a whole healthy person in order to be serving other people and in order to be working on issues that matter.

So whereas, my schedule or my Chief of Staff will laugh because I used to have, when I would look at a weekend and if it wasn't jampacked I would say, "Oh my gosh, what am I not doing?

"What am I missing?"

Whereas now I'll look at a weekend and if I get a weekend that's not jampacked, I have a delight in my face.

"Okay, I trust that all the things I should be going to "and all the people I should be talking to.

"And all of the focus I should be putting on others "in the community, I trust we're doing that."

And hooray, occasionally I'll get a weekend where I just get to dig in the dirt and attempt to garden in my backyard with my daughters.

But my garden is certainly evidence of the fact that I certainly prioritize my work serving people.

- When I worked for Frank Wolf, he had an absolutely unbreakable rule and that was Sunday was his worship day, his family day, his self day.

You did not schedule on Sunday.

You did not, under any circumstances and for the sorts of purposes you're talking about and he talked about that out on the campaign trail.

What I eventually learned though is that for him, Sunday ended the moment that "60 Minutes" signed off because one minute later, he would be calling me up, "Bill, Bill.

"On 60 Minutes, they just talked about this "and you need to go do this, this and this "to make sure that we can solve that problem."

And, but that's okay.

- I think my team would call that the Sunday Scaries.

- Yeah.

So, yeah.

Every now and then you, not every now and then.

As a regular practice, you have to, you have to have a time when you recharge your batteries.

When you, when you center yourself.

If you serve constantly and you allow yourself to be swept away by that service, you're not going to, you're not gonna be effective and you're probably not gonna wanna serve very long.

On an airplane they always say, "Put your own oxygen mask on "before you put on somebody else's."

It's a little bit drastic, a little bit dire maybe.

That's not the best example to use, but it does go to show that you can focus on yourself without being untrue to the principles of servant leadership.

- Thank you and to follow that question with a followup question.

If I, or anyone in this room wanted to be a servant leader, how would they go about doing that?

- Wake up tomorrow morning, really.

Servant leadership is a way of life.

It is a, and it's a way to a joyful life.

Every single one of us has the opportunity to be a servant leader because remember, it is servant first.

So if we wake up in the morning and say, "You know, I want to serve today.

"I want to serve my roommate, I want to serve my university, "I want to serve my faith, I want to serve my family."

Whatever it is, there will be times when you rise to leadership and you'll be ready for it.

I first learned about servant leadership from my 13-year-old daughter.

It was the year 2000, I came home one day.

I was a leader, I was in the State Senate, I was a successful lawyer.

I had done all these things and I came home and my daughter's there in the kitchen and I said, "How was your day today?"

And she said, "Oh it was good."

She said, "In my young life small group "we've been learning about servant leadership."

And it was the first time that I had ever heard that term.

And she was not the daughter who I would have pointed to and said, "Oh there's a leader."

She's the one I would have pointed to and said, "There's a servant."

And yet, throughout her life, she has found wonderful opportunities to lead and she's been ready to lead when those opportunities have come.

So she's just the perfect example of how one can really be a servant leadership as just like you breathe.

- And it doesn't necessarily mean you have to have a title.

- Yeah.

- It's being the helpful student in class if there's you know, a request for an answer and nobody has the answer.

It's recognizing that somebody might have shown up late a couple times to class and just checking in, "Is everything okay?"

Or, "I took notes, do you want me to send you my notes."

There's being extra friendly when you're getting your coffee at the Starbucks because you don't know what kind of day that person who's making your latte or your coffee of choice might be having right?

There's all these places where, and sometimes it's maybe better described as kindness or empathy or just being very polite.

But that sets an example for your peers.

It sets an example for people who might have titles around you and it sets an example for people who are watching and you never know who might see that example and really be struck by it and it might have an impact.

- Thank you.

- Let me give another example that we all know and that's Ralph Northam.

He is someone who spent his entire career as a pediatric neurologist.

Helping others, serving others, going from room to room.

Sometimes having to give very hard news to grieving parents and grieving children and he did not start off saying, "I want to be in the State Senate."

That opportunity came and he was ready for it and he served very capably in the State Senate and then as Lieutenant Governor and then as Governor and when COVID came, he was the only medical doctor who was a Governor in the entire nation.

And I see students from my COVID and the Constitution class here and we've talked about Ralph Northam in that class.

But it's a perfect example of someone who really had the heart of a servant.

The training of a servant but then was put into leadership at just the right time for what we needed.

So it might be someone who you never hear of and it might be someone who becomes the Governor of Virginia.

- Thank you so much.

- That kind of segues into a question I have for both of you.

If someone comes to you and they are interested, they feel like they have a passion to serve in the Legislature, even on a local level but they're somewhat terrified because of what they're seeing currently.

What do you say to them?

- You should definitely run.

I think anyone who's realistic about the fact that things are difficult and politics can be tough and it's not easy.

The people who see that and it gives them pause are the type, the people who say, "Oh that looks like so much fun, I want to do that."

Are the people we should not be electing.

And so I think a healthy level of, "Oo, I don't know about politics.

"I don't know if I want to put myself out there.

"I don't know if I want people questioning me all the time.

"I don't know if I want to do this to my family."

I don't know that, when my kids go to school, that everybody's gonna either see the ads that your parent's amazing, or your parent's terrible.

The people who have a healthy level of, "Let me really consider this."

I think are the people who should be running for office.

And so, what I say to people is, one, a healthy level of skepticism and consideration is really good.

A clear-eyed view of things you don't, as a voter or as a citizen don't think are working is also good because try and fix those things.

But then also, the question that I always ask people, is well why would you be doing this?

And if you know very clearly why it is that you would, despite the challenges and despite the fact that it seems hard and despite the fighting and the attack ads and all those sorts of things, that you're still thinking about it, what is that reason?

And if you can articulate that reason and it will be what gets you up in the morning, on days when it's just go, go, go and hard, hard, hard, you should definitely do it.

And I would also say that we can have impact in our communities in so many ways, to your question, it's about leadership in a community and sometimes that comes through volunteerism.

Sometimes it comes through advocacy.

Sometimes it comes through elected office.

I always encourage people to look at any type of involvement, be it elected or otherwise but then to have a clear-eyed view of things that could be better and a clear-eyed view of what would make you even want to endeavor to do something interesting or sometimes crazy like running for political office.

- Bill?

- Yeah I, I would say first of all, you do have to have a thick skin.

If you're gonna run for office, you have to have a thick skin and you have to know yourself well enough that you're not going to get caught in a trap.

It's easy to get caught up and to lose yourself if you don't have a real, a real grounding.

You always have to be able to look in the mirror and that's, for some people, that becomes a problem.

Now, what I like to do is to tease out, where is that person's passion?

Is elected office really what, where they are going to be able to do the most good?

An example that I have often given is the person in Virginia who really was the creator of the Victims' Rights movement in Virginia was a, someone who moved here from New Zealand.

Her parents divorced, she was able to finish high school here.

Went to Virginia Tech, majored in social work and started off working at Department of Corrections Work Camp 30 up in Fairfax, Virginia as a social worker.

But within 20 years, had become the primary advocate for crime victims in Virginia and was, and her work resulted in the Virginia Constitution being amended.

So she never would've thought of running for office.

She wouldn't have done nearly as much if she had run for office.

Because she was able to work into her passion.

If somebody really wants to be, does want to be involved in politics and that is their passion, I would say, "Go get involved in the Wason Center.

"That's by far the best thing you can possibly do."

- Bill and Abigail, thank you so much for sharing.

Such an engaging conversation.

And thank you so much for being a part of this evening's "Conversation for the Common Good".

We hope you've heard something that you will share with others.

I'm Lisa Godley, have a good evening.

(audience applauds) (anticipatory music)